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I Forge Iron

Tools from spring.


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I use either 4140 or 5160 for my hammer drifts. They were forged from 1 1/4" round stock. I forge a square taper down to about 3/8" with a stiker in the first heat, then take that to round in the second heat, then in the third heat do a two sided taper and finish it with a flatter. You are not going to be able to do that with 1 1/4" H13 with hand hammers. I know I can't. And that is just the working end. The handle end can be done in one heat, but not with H13.

Our tools take abuse and they will not hold up forever. We need to learn how to make, use, and maintain our tools.

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i understand we need to learn how to make and maintain our tools. I think i am just stuck in the heavy duty frame of mind. It seems that everything i do is engineered towards perfection. I am by no means being conceited, actually way to the other end of the spectrum. I'm the type of guy that has to throw myself into things full fledged. Super duty trucks, super duty tools, but this doesn't substitute for true learning, knowledge. I guess i just need to settle down into the basics and just beat some metal awhile and not get hung up in the intricacies discussed by the true experts on this forum.
Brian i really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and wisdom. i am gonna keep bombarding you with questions.
When you make hammers, do you use tool steel? I know it depends on the type, i am just talking about a regular 3# forging everyday hammer.

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Yes I do use tool steel. I use 4140 because that is what I can get for free. I would rather use 1045 because it yeilds to the hammer easier and still gives you what you want from a hammer. You don't want a hammer to be too hard.

Some people today are making hammers and even anvils out of the "Super Steels" [H13 and S7]. Why? I think it is for the same reason you were thinking about using H13 to start off with. They think it will hold up better. Nothing holds up to abuse, and you can abuse any steel as easily as the next.

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I can identify with your need for perfection. I grew up in my Father's metal spinning shop and we did a LOT of aerospace work. Some of Dad's work has left the solar system, been to most of the planets and is scattered around the moon.

Anyway, he did everything, EVERYTHING to ridiculous tolerances, he thought of working to 0.0001" as every day, average. He did a lot of work in the half a millionth range on manual machines between 30 and 50 years old. I don't think he ever bought a new piece of machinery.

Even while I was still working in the shop I enjoyed blacksmithing because it's by eyeball and feel, or "by guess and by gosh" as my Grandmother used to say it's how she cooked and I learned from her. It was a release, something I could do without having to sweat every single measurement.

A few years before he died I got him good, I was describing building things for the drill rig to a tenth, any closer and the other drillers would just destroy it. S'true you know, drillers are uncouth beasts who think a sledge is a precision adjustment tool. ;)

Dad gave me a funny look and said. (to paraphrase) "A tenth is darned close for that kind of work."

You should've seen the look on his face when I said, "A tenth of an inch Dad, not a ten thousandth." His mouth just opened and closed a few times while he blinked at me. Dad never did ANYTHING that inconceivably sloppy.

It took me decades to get over trying to build everything with a micrometer, I still try to get everything as close as possible but I can let a little leeway in if I try. Blacksmithing helped and still is helping me let go of uneccessary levels precision for every day stuff I learned in Dad's shop.

Good memories for sure.

Frosty

Edited by Frosty
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Wow Frosty,
Sounds like a tough standard your old man set. I am pretty lucky to work in an area of Ironworking where tolerances are usually a quarter inch! Reinforced steel placement is rarely held to extreme tolerances. Otherwise i'm sure i would have developed some sort of obsessive compullsive disorder myself! Now a days its horseshoes and handgrenades.

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I read a rant from the early 1800's when a steam engine fellow was complaining about the tolerances the smiths were holding for pistons and cylinders---he said they would only work to the thickness of a worn shilling. I always wanted to get a worn shilling as a "pocket piece" so when folks asked me about tolerances I could show them what was considered standard work back in the day...

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Brian,
You touched on this in an earlier post. Accomplished blacksmiths like yourself speak about forging materials in one heat, two heats, etc. Are certain metals prone to problems due to heating too many times? Can this be corrected by heat treating and tempering? For example, a totaly inexperienced newbie like myself would have difficulty forging a tool in one heat. If it took three or four heats to accomplish what you do in one, does that make my tool alot weaker? Same with projects, if i heat say a pair of tongs many times during forging, does that denegrate the quality of metal?

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I'll take a stab at reheating vs strength:

Every time you heat metal, the grain structure changes. The grain grows larger making it softer because larger grains are easier to deform than smaller grains. The more you work metal (hot or cold) the smaller the grain becomes so the metal is more difficult to deform: It is stronger. For the time it takes a smith to work metal hot, the grain is getting bigger much faster than the our ability to work it smaller, therefore the fewer heats taken the stronger the metal is against deformation when done. For cold working the grain cannot reform larger, so work hardening occurs.

The difference is quite noticeable since normalized (heated red, then air cooled) metal is much easier to bend, drill, or machine. The ultimate (fracture) strength won't change but strength of plastic (permanent) deformation will. When you are making a tool, plastic deformation strength is more important than ultimate strength, as you want the tool to keep its shape.

Since the the chemistry will change with carbon diffusing out of steel relatively fast. In some cases atmospheric gasses diffusing INTO the metal can be a problem. Fewer heats will prevent the chemistry from changing. With some metals, such as copper, reheating will drive oxygen into the metal, causing dissolved oxides making the metal more brittle. Changes in chemistry make the strength difference greater.

Don't confuse this with heat treating for hardening and tempering. In those processes you are trying to change the state or phase of the crystals from one form to another, then freeze it in the new state. Hardening is a fast process so grain size changes relatively little, even though changing phase will change volume.

I'm sure a metallurgist will call this oversimplified, and I may have missed some important points, so if you know more please elaborate or correct.

Phil

Edited by pkrankow
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Our local Pick a Part s / U-Pullits were pretty cheap. I was buying complete transmissions for $50.

Most all of my springs came from cars I parted out. Before the car went to the wrecker it gave up all of the springs, tie rods, center links, headliner rods, pedals / linkage, and anything else that looked forge worthy. Didn't realize how much I had until I was cleaning out the folks estate, and got to Dad's forge pile. The pile was about 4' x 8' x almost 3' tall, and consisted of a ton of leaf springs, coils, axles, and various other car parts along with the standard stuff. I called a good friend who is getting into smithing, and told him to load up whatever he wanted. Even after he filled his truck, I still had a ton of spring stock. One way to get flat spring that is straight is to get the leaves out of an early VW front beam, it was a torsion type axle. Chrysler products also had torsion bar front suspensions for a number of years, as well as some mini trucks like the Chevy Luv. I guess I have been lucky finding material as most has been free, and lots of it.

I read in one book where they mentioned 1095 as being a fairly common spring steel used in auto springs--- maybe the older ones?

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  • 1 year later...

Mike, I sang all day long when I was working by myself in your shop. I usually stop when people are around.

Here are some pictures of how to make an eye punch with tear ducts. I start with a square taper, then I use a bob punch to make a round impression, then I just file away two corners and any other material until I have the eye I want. The nose punch is a square taper then round one corner then take a chain saw file to the opposite corner. Leaving the other two corners as forged allows you to see how to orient your punch.post-4954-093387100 1282932587_thumb.jpgpost-4954-026990900 1282932681_thumb.jpg

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Still reading this thread...mainly wanted to bring it to the top as it has SO MUCH GOOD info in it. Thanks again for sharing Brain. And Phil for locating this thread!!

I agree completely.
I am currently in the middle of making a set of these tools from 1/2 inch coil spring. However being new to smithing it is taking me longer than one heat to do the tapers. lol.

Adam
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To make a one heat taper for a punch you don't need alot of experience, maybe a little practice. I used to "bang away" trying to make the shape of a punch. Now, I think about how to make a punch. Anyone could reason out how to make a punch. Most punches start with a square taper. To make a square taper, heat the material, hold the material at the appropriate angle, and hit the material with the appropriate dies. The dies to choose for a square tapered punch are the flat face of the anvil and the near half of your flat face of your hammer. The material needs to be held at the appropriate angle and struck in relation to that angle. Most people I have seen making punches use their whole face of their hammer causing the material to bend and not move very much. The top and bottom dies are not supportive, so the material bends, and the die contact when the material does bend is too great to accomplish much work. To make a one heat taper srike the appropriate dies once then turn 1/4 turn and srike once and turn another 1/4 turn in the same direction and strike once etc... until you are down to your chosen dimension. Then move your dies back to the start of your forging and strike in the same manner once turning 1/4 turn but using the center of your flat die of your hammer this time using your material and far face of your hammer as the stop until you achieve your desired angle of your taper. Finally, planish with overlapping lighter blows on all four sides.

Striking only once and turning is the key to success along with choosing smaller dies. It does take practice, but if you practice holding and hitting the dies it takes to make a punch in the least amount of hits, you will succede without having to "bang away" for years like I did without understanding.

Heat, Hold, and Hit.

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Brian - In your tapering description, should we be using the far edge of the anvil as the bottom die? And then drawing the piece towards the tip of the taper on each 1/4 turn?


No. The face of your anvil is the bottom die, and the angle you hold it creates the smaller surface contact. For longer tapers, like when I make hammer drifts, I would do as you questioned.
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Thanks for bringing this post back to life. I've attached some pictures to share what I've been able to do so far. The first pictures are of my first tools I tried to make. The second picture is of tools I made after attending a hammer class with Brian and Lyle. My hammer techniques still needs work, but I'm much happier with the results on the second batch. I'm planning to make another round of tools before too long.

Mark

post-11994-018172800 1283220749_thumb.jp

post-11994-070207500 1283220804_thumb.jp

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Mark, that punch third along in the first photo looks spot on, and all the tools in the second photo look real good too.
If you don't mind me asking some questions.
What was the average length you ended up with for your tools?
Also the punch on the left hand side in the second photo, is that an eye shaped punch? Could you post a photo or description of the working ends please.
Well done. I can only hope mine end up looking as good.

Brian. I changed the way I was hammering and had much better success. Thanks for the advice.
When you tempered the tools what colour did you run the working end to?
I hope these next few questions sound right.
Did you only do 3/4 inch on the working end and then quench the whole tool? or put it aside to air cool?
Did you leave the rest at air hardened state? or temper the striking end to softer state?

Adam

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