markb

Edge packing, aus forging

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This is related to my "Forging and strength" thread.

I started reading studying metallurgy as related to bladesmithing in the "80's.
and have been mostly off until recently, I'm a slow learner, so bear with me.

I remember somewhere along the line that lightly hammering the edge at a dull red would refine the grain (aus forging?) Actually I forgot this until recently when I read from a forum that the heat treat erased any grain refinement at the dull read stage.

That's what prompted the F and S thread.

My knowledge of this edge packing aus forging is very vague, I searched first.

So is there such a thing as aus forging?

Edge packing?

Mark

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Mark B, steel mills that make flat rolled steel strip for the auto industry and the pipe industry make something called a micro alloyed steel and use controlled rolling to produce it. It utilizes very minute amounts of vanadium, niobium and titanium as the alloys. When making these steels the strip is rolled (forged) at a low heat (about 1500F). This crushes the austenite grains but at the low heat, they do not rapidly recrystalize. After the finishing pass at this low heat, the strip is allowed to cool down to below the temperature at which the austenite begins to transform to ferrite. It is then water cooled to form the ferrite within the crushed austenite grains. The result is a very fine grained ferrite with vanadium and niobium carbonitrides precipitated throughout the ferrite grains. It can be as stong as heat treated steel but it is just as-rolled. Does that sound familiar? You can do this at the forge but why bother? It is still simpler to quench and temper small pieces.

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Thanks Robert and Glenn
This helps in my understanding. One thing I've realized is that my ability and need to understand this complex subject has a limit.
I'm trying to find the limit and I'm close, I think, and rethink, read and reread.

I find contradictions in all the sources I research which raises questions.
I think a lot of it is learning to learn.

Mark

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Mark you hit it on the nose when you said that ability and needs have to be considered.
I learn more about steels each and every day. Mostly in here or via links from here. But bottom line I have a few steels I use and have for a long time. I can pretty well predict how they will act when completed as a knife and how to tweak things a bit for different uses. When i try a new steel it is start again at the beginning for me. But htat has become easier with the reference material availeable. But I still do a lot of testing before putting on the market. I recently added a new ss to my list and the first thing was to make me a pocket knfe and use it daily for over a year. Now they are all made from that steel if they are ss.

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Bingo---you've got it! Contradictions seem to be the *norm* when discussing complex issues like steel and dealing with all the time, temp, cycles, alloys, and desired outcomes.

You think you've got it down pat and make a blanket statement and then someone will pop up with an outlier that compleatly goes against what you thought. (like wootz with it's high carbon content yet "softness", yet good cutting ability...)

I remembered when I first started pattern welding and one of the folks I was learning was advising me to always forge close to welding heat so as to not shear the welds, another I was learning from told me to always forge at a low temp so as to not shear the welds.

They both did exceptional work and had good results with *their* methods; but it bothered me until I stopped looking for *one* way that works and accepted that there may be a range of ways depending on the EXACT materials and processes being used.

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Hi Mark, On pages 44-45 of The Complete Bladesmith, Dr. Jim briefly discusses aus-forging. I haven't tried it yet, I'm still working on basic knife making skills myself before I try something new like that. But if you have access to the book, you can read what he says. Maybe he'll chime in to this thread soon?

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Rich, You are a big help to me in learning to learn the basics, at your suggestion, chose one steel to learn, make a template and recreate it, TAKE NOTES, practice, etc. you've made me realize the importance of being meathodical.
With the electrical trade I can approch a job look at it, and chose any number of ways to do it and to a large extent have stopped learning.

With steel I want, almost expect, that freedom, but don't have the knowledge experience yet.
Thanks for your continued support.

Thomas, Appling what I read and making mistakes is essential to learning and I have a hard time accepting mistakes, I should say the fear of making mistakes makes me hesitant. I can accept them.

Ecart, Thanks for that referance

Hope this isn't all too personal, just helps to get feed back in finding my way.

Thanks Mark

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Your responses help us to understand if we are in fact helping. So, IMHO, no, it's not too personal.

I just look forward to the day when I can ACTUALLY help and not just give references. I read these posts to learn from what others are asking and answering.

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On 6/15/2009 at 9:44 PM, Glenn said:

Thread necromancy!

Came across this thread while searching for 'aus-forging' (reading the Hrisoulas book), but all of the above links are 404s.  

Gone forever?  Newer (better?) threads to read?

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the links got messed up a few upgrades ago, but the threads ar still here, did you try looking at the pinned thread of advanced heat treating, or any of the others in the blade section?

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