Javelins

[M. Demetrius]

I plan to make a few Roman javelins (not the pilum type this time) which look like socketed spear points with a "long neck" in between the socket and the point. Some had leaf-shaped points, some had pyramidal points. Example here

I've never done this process before, so tell me if I'm thinking the right way. I'm starting from about 8" of 1/2" mild steel square stock.

1. taper the butt into a trapezoid, large end out, flatten some, then thin it into a socket by using a fuller and hammer.
2. draw out the "neck"
3a. shape the leaf point into a rough, flattened "right shape", then forge to cutting edges and point.
3b. or, draw the distal end into a 4-sided pyramid for that type point
4. Shape the socket around the newly installed stump bick to fit the shaft. I'm using 3' x 3/4" hardwood dowel, so the open end has to be smaller than 3/4" by a little, to allow for fitting the wood
5. drill and put a pin to hold the socket on.

Sound right? Should I aim in a different direction or order? Should I start at the pointy end first?

[Sam Salvati]

Just draw out a LONG socket.

[Dave Budd]

The socket doesn't run teh whole length of the 'shaft' (that makes life a bit easier), so the way I would go about it is:

1)flatten the last couple of inches and darw it wide with the cross peen of my hammer, keep going til its a nice wide fishtail and flatten
2) tidy the edges of the trapizoid if butting together or not if overlapping.
3) form the socket around a 3/4" mandrel (I would do it by eye and the tidy up at the end)
4) sever from parent bar and hold the socket with appropriate tongs.
5) draw down the shaft and neck in for the head.
6) forge the point.
7)tidy everything up and straighten

I haven't made a javelin like that one before, but I've made socketed pila and lots of arrowheads, so teh principle is the same ;)

[M. Demetrius]

Thanks, Dave. It's exactly like a miniature socketed pilum. These are Late Republic/Principate era javelins. I think they got simpler under Augustus and beyond, leaving out the central shaft. But you gotta love the look of these, don't you? Sleek.

So the metal gradually thickens as it approaches the shaft? That would be easier and a couple of heats less than having to make that trapezoid first. I don't really see it's being easy to eliminate that gap where the two figures merge. There will probably be a hole or space of one kind or another at the upper end of the cone. Is that normative?

Are you with a group in UK? I'm hooked up with Terry Nix's Leg XF in Texas.

[Dave Budd]

there will always be a hole there, but with practice you can get it pretty small. But to be honest, it ain't going to affect it in use :D

[FERRARIVS]

Dave-

You can eliminate that hole if your final desired diameter at the end of the socket is maybe 30% smaller than the stock you're starting with- it's just a matter of hammering and rotating to 'squash' the hole. I've seen both with and without on original artifacts (spearheads and arrowheads, to name two) so clearly some cared to do it, others didn't (or sometimes did and sometimes didn't, whatever the case was).

But indeed I agree with Dave, it's easier to form the socket fully before forming the shaft and head- for just the reasons he suggests- because you can start with a nice, long bar meaning no tongs, and after you have a socket to hold on to with tongs. I've done them both ways and definitely this is easier.

[M. Demetrius]

Thanks Ferrarivs.
I don't mind the hole so much, because I suspect it would save a few minutes at the forge, and the people making the originals had thousands to make when they geared up. Thousands of few minutes saved makes a few days saved. Might save a slave smith a flogging, and that's always good.

[Bill in Oregon]

Please post photos when you get to forging your javelin hardware. Love to see them.

[FERRARIVS]

Save that the majority of artifacts I've seen have no hole Dave The idea that things were more often crude or made quickly for 'gearing up' seems perhaps something of a myth- the original arrowheads I have, which are FAR more 'disposable' than javelins are usually rather nicely-made...

Here are a few pila I've forged- two socketed types, that I spent a few extra minutes on reducing the 'hole' to virtually nothing and it wasn't a ton of effort. Unfortunately I didn't photograph them any closer up, so I guess you'll have to take my word for them being closed LOL

Matt

Edited June 11, 2009 by FERRARIVS

[FERRARIVS]

Or wait- here's one- a socket formed on a 1/2" square bar prior to drawing out the shank... and then the finished short javelin.

Edited June 11, 2009 by FERRARIVS

[Dave Budd]

I think maybe our definition of 'closed up' is different. I would say that the close up in that last picture has a hole in it When MD asked about closing the hole/tranmsition I was thinking welded socket rather than tight hole.

Not that it really matters, I'm sure there were bad smiths forging the heads aswell as good smiths :D

[M. Demetrius]

Very nice work. When you made that collet for the "regular" pilum, did you start with a cut piece of square tubing and stretch it into the pyramidal shape?

Do you do Roman somewhere? I'm in the Tenth Fretensis HQ in Houston, TX

[FERRARIVS]

Ah, likely so Dave (Budd)- I don't mean a seam, but rather the large gap that often people leave at the top- like on this one:http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f79/new-spear-2464/ Not a bad thing, as sometimes they do have it, just not the majority I've seen.

Dave (W)- it's me, Matt Lukes And thanks. Yeah the ferrule started life as a bit of 1/16" wall square tubing that I forged on a form. It's actually compressed, not stretched- far easier I found.

Edited June 11, 2009 by FERRARIVS

[M. Demetrius]

OK< next dumb pilum question. For those with a flat tang, do you fold back and forge weld the metal to get more material there, or do you draw out the entire shaft from thicker stock. Seems like there's only those two ways to go, and both involve some significant work...I've put down the pilum project for quite a while, but it's floating back up to the top of the list. I think the most likely way I'll attempt next is to draw a point about 3" long, turn it back onto itself and attempt to forge weld it. Then, when I make that trapezoidal tang, there should be from twice as much metal at the large end to a single thickness at the point. Am I overthinking this?

If you flatten, say, a 3/8" square bar out to 1 1/4" wide at the large end of the tang, it's really thin there, and not much thicker as you work up to the full thickness at the end of the collet. Many pila I made way back when (small bottle propane torch: yikes!) were very weak at that point.

How do the big boys do it?

[FERRARIVS]

I use 1/2" square stock exclusively as it is far easier to upset a little to provide more material at the end for sockets or broad-tangs a little ways up for spike-tanged pila. I made a Republican broad-tanged type with the folded-over edges a few months ago from such a bar and I don't think I really upset it much at all actually, and the thickness was still on the order of 3mm or so I think, even though it was quite broad indeed. Were I to want to make the type with the split and folded edges, I think I would try forging thin and folding over, welding only the middle so I had a natural split in the edges- I wouldn't be surprised if this is how it was originally done as I just can't see cutting a thin slit in a tang edge deep enough to give 4-5mm folds...

Edited June 12, 2009 by FERRARIVS

[M. Demetrius]

Seems like a lot to draw out for the shaft, but you're probably doing it the right way. Do you have a power hammer?

[FERRARIVS]

I wish LOL Nope, just me arm. I ground the cross peen of one of my 1kg hammers quite blunt as I found that a better shape for drawing thicker stock (not so many sharp peaks to flatten and more metal seems to be moved for a bit less thinning). A couple of weeks ago I forged a 65cm long pilum from a 14" bar, thinning it down to just 6-7mm square for 3/4 of the final length without a ridiculous amount of energy spent. I did it over two days- of non-continuous work (forging other things at the same time and taking breaks of course) but didn't keep strict track of the time spent- but it wasn't excessive.

[Maurice]

Does the javelin fly well.