DonS Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I made an "anvil" out of a piece of rail back in high school. I cut it into an anvil shape with a torch and drilled a few holes in the top as pritchel holes and to hold dowels for bending. I started cutting the top flat with a hacksaw because it had quite a crown to it. After about 2 inches I gave up, and used it for the next 20 years on the workbench mostly for flattening or straightening things out cold...then I took a blacksmithing course and found out what a real anvil was like. Unable to find a real anvil, I thought that I should finish what I started back in high school, so I continued to saw the slab off the top of the rail and ground it flat. That took many days of hacksawing, only to discover that the top was now much softer than it used to be. It was time well spent though, because this became the seed anvil that led me to a 150 lb cast steel anvil about 6 months later. The rounded part that I cut off was probably work hardened. I usually work on small stuff under half-inch square. If someone is using the "real" anvil in the shop, I find that there is nothing wrong with using a scrap of steel held in the vise to do some small forgings. If you can't find an anvil, use a piece of rail and scale your work accordingly. If you have a good vise, you can do plenty of blacksmithing since it can hold scroll jigs, hardies fullers and bicks. A 6-inch mechanics vise is pretty hard to break with a 2-1/2 pound hammer. If you can find a 40 or 50 lb leg vise, use that. Around here they are easier to find than an anvil, and certainly a lot cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Hey new guy. Don't get too annoyed with the advice. I was once young like you, and it was a blur. Now, I am old and it is a blur again . But it is not as fun as being young. Hmmmmmm, there is something missing . I remember exactly who you are talking about, since his post about the matter was so memorable. It was HWooldridge. He is my hero (although not quite as much as Thomas Powers, who in addition to being erudite and ingenious, is also downright cheap). He welded a spring steel top plate onto an anvil. But you left out some key parts, and added a little bit of misinformation. The basic premise is correct. I have welded spring steel and plain high carbon steel. It works, but if you are careless, the results can be hazardous, especially on impact tools. Be careful out there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f22/lets-do-something-about-hf-aso-6851/ hah i found the link that is was thinking of! and yes i added mis information, but that is the curse of hearsay. i just thought that i would prove my source and info. and i was wrong about how it was welded. sorry about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 I guess an anvil is not a shape but a function. Whatever you are using as an anvil is, indeed, an anvil. I had two blocks of what is called cobble plate from when I worked in a steel mill. This was steel that got partially rolled flat and something went wrong. They cut the plate out of the mill and scrapped it. My two blocks are 4"x6"x12" or 107 lbs. They are also 4130 Alloy Steel. I sold one to a young bladesmith in Memphis for $35 several years ago. I hope he appreciates the good deal he got. I still have the other one. I will probably keep this one but who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drifter Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 (edited) Wonder how that 7024 weld is holding up after use ? I was thinking more along the line sof using E310-16 as it has way more elasticity in my experiance and doesn't work harden as easy. I find myself reaching for stainless a lot when welding dissimilar metals is and some cast iron as well rather then NI rod. Edited May 21, 2009 by Drifter added last sentance for claification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Much better New guy. Now we can engage in conversation about something we can all be sure actually happened. Best of all nobody's going to give you any grief about saying wild things without anything to back it up. So, how about going to the next level and asking Nate how it's holding up? Maybe ask for details on how he welded it. What if any problems it's developed over the years. Etc. I have my own thoughts about how successful this kind of mod will be and what kinds of problems to expect but I'll reserve them till YOU find out how his worked and report back, or maybe ask if Nate will jump in. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 well it looks like a short term quick fix to me. although i know tiddly sqautabout welding. i have heard (and will find the link) that you can cut one tine off of a forklift fork and use that for an anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unkle spike Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 I have the 110 pound HF ASO, and a mousehole, I used the HF ASO for 5+ years. The 110 has a top plate already on it, and after all that heatin and beatin mine still looks pretty good. I had someone comment at a demo on how nice of shape the top plate was in. My thought is going to the time and expense of altering an ASO isn't worth it, you would be better to spend the energy on finding a good anvil while working with "what ya got" New Guy kudo's on taking the time to back up you post, lends credibility to your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 umm thank you (i am right this time i think:rolleyes:) i reallt want to find the forklift tine anvil link. i know where i can get one (for me) in case a friend can heft my hammers. thanks again and happy hammering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Jeff: The 110 HF anvils were Russian made cast steel for quite a while and of decent quality. Is the hardy hole set at a 45* angle? Many if not most of the Russian anvils had the quirk. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay.bro Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 I don't know much about them as I'm just starting out but I know I am going to use one to start out and I found this link that is the most informative on how to make one and to make it more useful just as a guideline on a way you could approach the making of it it even mentions the welding of the piece of leaf spring to the top of it. http://www.instructables.com/id/Railroad-Track-Anvil/?amp_page=true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Sawicki Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 Read it, defiantly isn't the best way to make a improvised anvil. Checkout this thread to give you an idea about the best improvised anvils: The one thing you will notice about them is that they have a lot of mass under where you will be forging, where as that type of railroad anvil doesn't. If you have a long piece of rail stand it up length wise, that way you have the mass of the rail under where you will be forging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 Have you read the entire chapter on making them in "The Complete Modern Blacksmith" by Weygers? He also covers how to heat treat the rail...No welding involved, He also explains how to drill a square hole---and how knowing how to do that got him a higher rank in the service! Re the "destructable" A random fire is probably not going to heat that anvil to the critical point to harden that anvil when dumped in water. Just as well as he doesn't discuss tempering it and so it would be actively hazardous to use if you did manage to harden it. He says "Typical hardy tools are a blade for cutting iron (not steel - hot wrought iron cuts like leather)" to quote Abbie Hoffman's trial "Barnyard Expletive" ! I'm betting that 99 & 44/100ths of the hardies in use are used to cut steel. Note that when he welds the leaf spring on top he doesn't do a full penetration weld. (sourcing a well used piece of ral with the top worn flat avoids the welding of the leaf spring to the face but makes making the hardy hole harder...) Doesn't mention preheat and slow cool to avoid HAZ issues on high carbon steel! May I suggest you ask if a process is any good before commending it to other new people. (You will see references to Dunning Kruger mentioned here when new people don't have the background to evaluate something on the net. A classic one is the video extolling the use of sand and plaster of paris as a forge liner---unfortunately it starts breaking down 1000 degf *below* the lower threshold for forging and not being insulative it wastes a lot of propane heating steel. Yet people show up here regularly having built forges that way because they believed what the poster claimed with no further research.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 Google "Viking era anvils" look at how big they weren't. A 4" section with a short horn ground on it and the web cut down to a spike to let into a stump is very similar to one of the museum pieces, but honestly bang for the buck is to set it in end. The 1-1/2x3" rail head works well with a 1-1/2 to 2# hammer (hand hammer size used buy Viking era smiths) then the web and flange can be shaped into tooling. A lot less work and a superior anvil to carving a London patern out of a rail. If one wants to go threw the trouble, set a rail on end, cutting away some of the flange and web to let the head stand proud 6" or so and then taking a 6" section of rail head and forging a horn (or two) and welding it on top would give you more realistate, butI don't think it's worth the work. I realy think welding to rail is going backwards, if you want to do the welding and post heat get a large mild steel drop, cut the flange odd the rail and weld it on as a tool steel face. The shape of the flange aloes you to reach in and weld up althe way from the inside making a monolithic anvil. Heck, a 2x2 drop welded as a post to a section of rail head is beter than the 7/8" web of a rail. Honest tho, if you don't think a rail on end is enugh realistate get a large drop, or piece of heavy equipment. Save grinding and heattreating rail for fools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Richter Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 Hi Gents, Also try to made some rail road anvils just for fun and a good friend of my. After all, quit satisfied with the result. Not really suited for de heavy work but still useful for noble blacksmith work like trinket, arrow points, pendants and maybe knives. Some words about the suitability of rail road tracks for small anvils. The manganese steel of the rail profile top get chock quenched and the rest of the heat annealed the body of the rail. This made the running surface of the rail hard and durable to prevent to worn out, and the body of the profile ductile to absorb the beats of the train (hammer?). However the same as your professional anvil have to do (please, is there someone to explain me the rebound question ) Your feedback is very welcome. Cheers, Hans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 I would suggest adding an upright section of rail about the same size or an upright round or square drop to provide an anvil for heavier forging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Richter Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Hi Charles, thanks for feedback and sorry for my delayed reaction. Of course if you have no other option, an upright part make sense. In my case I take advantage of this 3 beauty’s for heavier forging. B.t.w. after my information a rail road rail is hard on the surface and ductile (soft) in his foot section. How do you deal with that without beating deep dents in it (hardening!?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Now your just trying to make me envious! Lol. Induction hardening isn't neir the issue as if work harnpdening. But in either case, even the as forged state of a rail it's 9 point carbon and a lot harder than hot steel That said, beutiful machine work.all the labor is expensive, why not invest in having an anvil cut from 4" of 4060 of some such, and then machine and heat treat? The material costs are nedligible compared to the labor costs. I bet you could come up with a beutiful run of anvils. And after having a whole plate cut up the material costs per anivil would be very low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay.bro Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 On 5/16/2009 at 1:23 PM, Frosty said: I built anvil # 4-5 worked a lot better I simply stacked sections in the shipping configuration and welded it up. The shipping configuration for this purpose is two up and one down on top. Just curious wouldn't it be easier to weld that using thermite seeing as how that's what a lot of rails are welded together with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Thermite is aluminum powder and Iron oxid. One must form a mold around the peices to weld and then light of the thermochclinthermocycling in a crucible. From here you pore neirly pure molten iron (superheated so as to be hot enugh to melt the materials to be welded) into the mold. One drop of sweat in the mood or falling in the crucible and you and your assistant get sprayed in super heated liquid iron! That's why they use mending plates these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 No, not remotely, not easier nor safer. Thermite is fun to talk about using but you don't want to be around it in use. Welding RR rail is done with a specialized mold and burns in an attached crucible designed for that specific purpose. When they touch it off the guys stand well back. Were someone to try thermite welding rail in the configuration of this anvil there would need a stupid quantity of super heated molten iron to fill the space. Let's see, 2" x 5" x 30" x2. That would be around 175 lbs. of iron to fill the space. IF there was no wastage (HAH!) that'd be a good 350lb. thermite charge. Thermite tank killers weigh about 3-4 lbs. before you pull the pin. A 350 charge would be a neat approximation of the Chins Syndrome though, it'd just burn it's way into the ground till it hit ANY moisture, then it'd get launched into the air in a dramatic manner. A stick welder and a 10lb. tube of 7018 worked a treat and I put probably 6lbs. of rod in my cabinet afterwards. Oh, if you do something like this, PLEASE have someone video it from a few hundred feet upwind. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay.bro Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 I didn't plan to do it I just knew they used it to weld rail together and have seen thermite used before in the military but never actually used it myself. Just thought it could be a thesible way to do it and thought it would be worth asking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 The use by RRs are very well engineered for the exact task. There used to be a fellow over at Sword Forum International that was using thermite to make custom alloys for experimenting with blademaking; very interesting!---Until the day he posted that he had to stop as he was going blind, evidently the heavy duty PPE he was using was not sufficient! I decided that I would drop that method from my to do list... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay.bro Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 Well alrighty then I will be doing the same as I don't wish to be blind. I had thought about asking of anyone had tried mixing it into their wood fires in their forges but thought about it awhile and I came to the conclusion nobody would do that if their forge was metal especially I'd imagine it'd turn into a puddle on the ground rather quickly. I am considering that configuration you mentioned I even found a picture of one online Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 One of the companies that make thermite *systems* for welding RR rail in the field demo'd their set up at Quad-State one year. Quite a lot of specialized stuff to do it safely and exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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