EWCTool Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 I was reading about rail anvils and everyone says that they make crappy anvils. These same people say that the best anvils are forged. Rail anvils are forged the only difference is that they are tempered differently. It reality it is not all that hard to harden the face of a newly ground rail anvil. I want to start an arguement for and against rail anvils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 (edited) Allow me to dissent from those opinions. The only problem with rail road anvils is that they tend to be worn un-evenly and are some what light weight. The uneveness can be cured in one of two ways. Either build up with hard facing rod and grind square, or just grind square. They make a decent small anvil if you tie them down with heavy (5/8 or 3/4 bolts ) to a heavy support. When tied down to a heavy end grain timber block they can take any thing an hand hammer can show them. The surface is small which can be a problem but for a practice anvil of basic techniques they are good.--- Until you decide on your purchase of a heavy anvil. You will need a heavy vice and workbench to substitute for some of features of a regular anvil. But you need these things any way. If you take the time to finish it well the railroad anvil will repay you with good service. In your area there are number of black smithing group that can put you in line for a regular anvil so it might not be worth your time to go to that trouble. I have two railroad anvils that I use for forging when I need to work on an area that is too small for my larger anvil to fit. Edited May 16, 2009 by Charlotte spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 (edited) Well, once again this particular group of "everyone" is either misinformed, doing it wrong or have different needs. Rails are very high quality rolled steel in the 1080 range, the correct numbers are available here with a simple search if you want them. I got around the weight issue building my third or fourth one by welding some extra weight into the web. I torched the rails off another piece and welded them into the web of my anvil which brought the weight up to around 65lbs. I built anvil # 4-5 worked a lot better I simply stacked sections in the shipping configuration and welded it up. The shipping configuration for this purpose is two up and one down on top. See attached sketch. This gives you a nice flat face and a horn is simply a matter of leaving one of the bottom rails longer than the face and shaping it as you like. If you want you can leave it long on both ends for a square horn for a double bic. OR you can leave a short extended length on both rails on one end for a swage with some shaping and welding. At any rate this makes a decent weight, good face, good if offset horn(s) and stable solid foot for some extra prep and welding compared to just adding ballast. I recommend as part of the prep, you torch openings in the web of the upright rails (and welding spacers if necessary to the upside down rail) so you can get a good solid weld between the three. Do all your rough shaping on the horn(s) or whatever shapes before welding. Preheat appropriate to welding simple high C steel. Heat treat appropriate to simple high C steel and temper to about R50 on the face. Do NOT use as quenched! This is high carbon steel, it will chip, break maybe even shatter if you hit it at full hardness. This is . . . BAD. If you don't know how to weld high C steel, don't have the welder or whatever you can use it just the way you found it. Even though old rail will be worn you can still use it. Frosty Edited May 16, 2009 by Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 well i don't know much about them but i hear they work. i have a rr track that someone welded a plate on top and it works. rings like you would not belive. they are ok but a real anvil is always better. i would get one if it were my only option. although my new fisher norris is way better. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWCTool Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 Railroad rail is engineered to be a rail not an anvil. There are better anvils out there. An anvil made out of rail would have a very small face, and would not be considered the main forging anvil for someone who really knows what he is doing unless that is the only thing avalible for them. But for their size I would consider it superior (if properly heat treated) to some anvils of similar size which are used for sheet metal or light forging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pault17 Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Amen Frosty. I hear this debate alot in my small area o practicing smiths too. Most chastise anybody that even wants to consider themselves a smith, or even try to learn, if they don't get themselves a "real anvil" first. If you don't have access or fundage for a "real anvil" but still have the desire to learn, or better yet, don't even have access to decent scrap or salvage yard to pick up an appropriate massive chunk of metal, Rail is not as difficult to aquire.. Plus, it is easier to shape into an ASO (I did mine with a 4.5 inch grinder with this cutting discs) and is easier to practice on if your space is limited. I am still hoping and praying that someone will drop a HOFI anvil on my doorstep and shout "Merry Christmas", but till then I will continue using my russian HF POS with glee. Oh, yeah... when a friend expressed interest in trying out smithing, I GAVE him a ready-made 56 lb RR ASO that he was able to put right to work. He has not complained once. rant off:cool: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason L Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I have two pieces of track, one small gauge and one large gauge. The big piece weighs in at 98 lbs and the small one is probably around 30 lbs or so. They both work very well for me and as far as the size of the work area is concerned, I've always figured that it only has to be as big as the hammer face that's hitting it. I could be wrong but it seems to me that that's the only part that is being used anyway. Neither of mine have horns although the smaller one appears to have been cut so that a horn could be added later. I picked up the only anvil I've ever been able to find (it's cast iron I believe) so I'd have a horn to work on. For the record, the only thing I've ever used is the pieces of track and they work great. Really loud though, the ringing is bad enough to hurt my ears! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnr Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I started off with RR track as an anvil. I learned enough and made enough money with it to buy my first "real" anvil. Never short change the cheap simple item.It can do a whole lot for you. Finnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 EWCTool: let me paraphrase "everyone says that sheets of window glass make poor drinking glasses; but glass makes great drinking glasses---what gives?" Material is fine, shape is not as great as it could be. In forging the hammer "sees" mainly the metal directly under the impact point and the way most people use RR rail makes for little steel directly under the hammer---most of it is to the sides! A better way to use it would be to stand a length of it on end and concrete it into a 5 gallon bucket and then forge on the end putting the entire length "under" the hammer. Welding on a fairly smallish face can make it a bit easier to use too. BTW "The Complete Modern Blacksmith", Weygers, has detailed plans for make RR rail anvils thye way folks usually use them including heat treating instructions. A bunch of knifemakers are now going to vertical lengths of steel for bladesmithing anvils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 The bitter truth is tools are nothing without a human hand to use them. An anvil a piece of RR rail and a boulder are all exactly the same thing if you know what you're doing. Or if you don't have a clue too for that matter. A person who turns their nose up at a piece of rail as not being a "real" anvil doesn't know what one is. They'll also be wandering around whining about not having the "right" tool for and being unable to do any given job. On the other hand the person who just gets on with it will find, make or improvise his/er own tools and get it done. Which do you want to learn from? Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyo Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I'm still seeking an anvil that I can afford with my ever shrinking budget. I went to a number of scrap yards this weekend but had no success. This disappointment was exacerbated by the fact that I couldn't even get any of them to sell me some scrap. Later, while driving around I went over some old, out of use railroad track. This got me thinking so I went for a walk alone these old tracks. My few hours of walking paid off. While I found no old sections of rail, I did find a large number of old spikes, some curvy solid steel things, some curvy channel steel things, a few large bolts, and the big prize 3 old tie plates. Two of these plates were around 14"x8" and weigh at least 25# each, the other was a bit smaller. They have nice large flat areas that I think I may use as my makeshift temporary anvil. I'm still trying to figure out how to get the most out these to make something anvil-ish. It would certainly be easy to attach one of these to a wooden base and just use it as is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 cyo tie plates ring like the devil!! i had one as an anvil for about 15minutes and i am convinced i could wake the dead with it. i went back to a mild steel plate. however they are flat and tough so they do work. nail it to a stump at a height you like. i used old rr spikes. it will work but wear earplugs and those ear muff dohickeys that go over your ears. well happey hammerin and good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Visit a truck repair shop and see if you can buy or talk them out of a broken truck axle. Set on end flange up they make excellent anvils. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 i hear axles make good hammers too and you may be able to get some snapped sections of leaf springs. those are good to weld on top of a cheap anvil or make tools that need to be sharp. good luck finding an anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unkle spike Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 "those are good to weld on top of a cheap anvil" Have you done this? What rod would you use for it? Does it need preheat/postheat? Do you have to stress relieve it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 there is someone who has done this on the forum and i will see if i can find a link. also i know a guy who did it to a cheap grizzly. i will ask him. i know he said to stress releve before and after welding it on. i know nothing about welding but he probably used oxy/acetaline with some 7018 rods (i think). i am just passing on what i heard. don't do this without proper reasearch, i would feel stupid if someone got hurt beacasue i was wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 New guy, instead of feeling stupid because someone mistakenly believes you know something and tries one of the half baked things you say, you MIGHT try talking about things you actually do know. It's a really good way to not feel nor sound stupid. You have two (2) ears, two (2) eyes and one (1) mouth for a good reason. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 My first anvil was a 12" section of light crane rail. I machined the top flat, ground a horn on it and torch cut the feet in. I called my Ballerina. Every time I hit it, it would dance. Yep, a chunk of track will do but the first time you forge on an anvil with some mass to it, you begin to appreciate a "real" anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Leppo Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I started on a rail, set rail-style, then graduated to an "anvil" anvil. I still use the rail - standing on end! the web is cut away, leaving the flat end of the thick part to work on. I use this when I need a small face to avoid damaging surrounding work, like drawing the stem on an already forged leaf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Leppo Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Ha, I can see my name on the internet! ....O wait, it's not even my real name! Drat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 edit to my earlier post( actually two ago): the second person who i heard this from (not on this froum but face to face) is a legitamate black smith who has been at it for longer than i hvae been alive. i think it may not have been 7018 rod but i am not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 (edited) Then let HIM/ER pass on accurate information rather than your uninformed misinterpretations. Oh wait, they aren't on this forum are they. So I guess there is NO way to get accurate information, you're certainly blowing smoke. Welded it up with oxy/acet with some 7018 rods? Heck, that doesn't even blow smoke. It is better to remain silent and let people think you a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt. Frosty Edited May 19, 2009 by Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 touche. as i said thoug i do not weld. he does, and there is a thread on here that shows a leaf spring being put on an aso. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unkle spike Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 (edited) "He who knows nothing, says nothing" where did I hear this before? I tried to be subtle yesterday.....don't say you were not forwarned. " Edited May 19, 2009 by unkle spike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWCTool Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Back to rail anvils. I have set up a 22'' section on a stump and I dressed up the face with a hand grinder. I did not get the face completely flat because I wanted a slight convex curve in it. I use it for finishing the bevel of knife or axe blades. It feels very dead compared to my forging anvil, but the curve is perfect for finishing bevels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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