Vacuum systems??

[JPH]

Howdy!!

Ok..it took me two weeks to clean out the mess in my studio...I NEED a vacuum system..does anyone around here know anything about them and what it takes/needs to install one>???

ANY help/advise and or idea will be greatly appreciated..

Thanks all!!

JPH

[oakwoodforge]

JPH, Do you mean a dust collector system ? I have installed a few of those in cabinet shops and places like that. A dust collector can be as simple as a shop vac, a 5 gallon bucket and some dryer duct or you can go bigtime an do a multi intake ( one for each Mill, lathe, grinder, buffer or saw ) high power system, that'l suck a 4 lb hammer out of your hands if your not careful. I really need to install one in my wood shop and in the knife shop too. I know that breathing all that dust is bad news for my lungs.
This place as good prices on all that kind of stuff. http://www.grizzly.com/products/category.aspx?key=570010

Hope this helps

Jens

[JPH]

Jens:

ok I know nothing about these things so what am I looking at??

JPH

[oakwoodforge]

Basicly they are like a gaint extra noisy shop vac with a double or tripple filter and a big o'l dust hopper. You install sheetmetal ductwork to each macine with a blastgate and a funnel opening or hood to catch the dust. Turn the Vacuum on and open the blastgate for the machine you are using and watch the dust dissappear. Its also a good idea to install a few of these "floor sweeps" http://www.grizzly.com/products/G7359 to make clean up easier, just sweep the dust towards the opening and it sucks it up, No more dustpans! I wouldn't bother istalling anything less than a 2.5hp or 3hp collector a 4HP would be ideal for my little shop. Any good HVAC sheetmetal contractor could install a system like this, and since your in the Vegas area you have more HVAC sheetmetal contractors per capita than the whole rest of the country

Jens

[JPH]

Jens:

Oooohhhhhhhhhhhh ok...now that you explained it...I got it....so can these be housed outside in a outbuilding, like a water heater is??

JPH

[oakwoodforge]

Yessir Deffinitely house it outside, the DB level is something close to a jet engine. I'm planning to build a sound absorbing doghouse for the dust collector and air compressor and possibly a backup generator as well.
Now I just need a winning power-ball ticket and a summer off work to build it all.

Jens

[JPH]

Jens:

Ok so how big a system would I need to service 4 grinders?? I take it plastic ducting is out....

JPH

[oakwoodforge]

JPH, Most of the time you only use one grinder at a time right? So only one station will be pulling dust at a time. A 3 or 4 hp system with 4" ducts would be more than enough for everyday use. But still strong enough, even if all 4 stations were running, like when you are having guests or doing a workshop/hammer-in. Too much Dust collector is way better than not enough dust collector IMHO.
For some reason the filters never seem to get cleaned or changed as often as they should, so get the extra big filters.

Jens

[Ed Thomas]

JPH: Jens advice is excellent. However, I have worked in two shops with the dust collection system inside and it was tolerable, though I prefer to use hearing protection all the time. So if putting the vacuum unit outside is too hard, it isn't absolutely necessary. Like wet-vacs... there is quite a range on noise and power, so check the literature. As Jens indicated, it's a matter of usage. You wouldn't have it on all the time in the metal trades like you do in in the woodwhacker trades.

I have helped in installing the ductwork before, and everyone I know has put their own stuff in (these are all small shops, of course). So it can be done by you if you can afford the time. Pretty much like installing simple plumbing only less critical.

I couldn't tell if you picked up on what Jens was saying about loading. You can add vacuum hoses to each piece of equipment any time. Just like adding another electric outlet. Each outlet has a slide damper that you shut when not in use. That way, at any one time, the vacuum unit only has to draw through whatever you open for it.

If there is a Lowe's (or similar mega-hardware-store) near you, you can go look at the units and pieces to get an idea of how they work. Even the independent hardware dealer has parts for one. For example, here is the arsenal at Lowe's:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productList&N=0&Ntk=i_products&Ntt=dust%20collector

[ThomasPowers]

Think about putting in a settling tank as close to the dust make as possible---you probably want a fairly small intake to get the air speed up to pull in the dust but then route it through a large tank to drop the airspeed and drop a lot of the heavier particulates. A 55 gal drum with an easily removed top will work. Make the pipe to the grinder inlet stick down further than the pipe to the vacuum system.

Remember that grinding dust can and will catch on fire given a chance!


Most woodworking systems are not suitable for metal dust.

Thomas

[oakwoodforge]

Good Point Thomas, I think It would be best to speak with a Factory Rep or contractor and explain your needs, making sure to explain about the particular dusts, steel, brass, horn, bone, wood, micarta ...whatever. They can probably design a system that will exactly fit your needs. And satisfy Fire and Osha Code for your Location.


Jens

[JPH]

Ok I think I got a problem...what about the wood dust gernerated from doing grips?? I mean now that I am thinking a out this will I need two systems?? I mean i grind wood and metal on all 4 of my grinders....All I need is a fire being fanned by a air flow to really burn this place down...

JPH

[Woody]

Jim:

You porbably don't want to suck hot metal grindings into wood dust, as Thomas pointed out there is a fire hazard as well as an explosion hazard. Remember what grain dust does in a grain elevator when circumstances are right. Perhaps one vacuum system with two seperate collection tanks and a diverter valve so you could switch from metal grindings to wood dust. Also probably a good idea to wear a filter mask respirator when doing any grinding or sanding. Any particle 5 microns or smaller will penetrate into the lungs all the way to the Aveoli and lodge there. This creates scar tissue and loss of lung functon. Asbestosis, Silicosis, Black Lung Disease are all caused by a sub 5 micron particle. Different materials, different diseases, results are all the same.

Woody

[oakwoodforge]

Or you could Possibly go the cheap'n easy way and use a 5 gallon steel bucket with 2 inches of water in the bottom for a spark arresting settling chamber and hook up a shopvac. One setup for each grinder, no worries about dust mixing, or fires. Just rember to change the stinky water and shopvac filters.

Jens

[Ed Thomas]

I don't know the answer to this, but a question I would have is a matter of duty cycle. Does anybody know if the wet-vac life span would make this an expensive solution in the long run? It seems like the dust systems I've heard don't have quite that screaming motor sound of the vacuum. Sort of a high volume lower pressure idea. Designed to run longer per cycle, in other words. Any thoughts on this?

[henerythe8th]

Jens,
I think that you might be on to something...

The water in a pail concept is not a bad one and could easily be used with the rest of the "dust collector" system ...

In actuality, there would be little to no need for the dust collection portion of the system...

You could now locate the blower/vacuum source in the rafters, equipment room, or outside. Plumb the rest of the system as you would for a dust collection system similar to that in a woodworking shop and have either one movable "water filter" or several stationary ones. The idea being intake comes in below water level, say 6-10 inches from the bottom of a small ring top drum (picture grease drum from the quicky-lube joint:rolleyes: ). The vacuum source would be plumbed vertically into the top of the drum with enough vertical distance to ensure that the water does'nt bubble/splash up into the intake...

Is this craziness?

or

should we continue with the concept?

I am thinking that it could be used as a weld fume filter and all sorts of stuff...

H
the
8th

[sandpile]

I have seen wood and steel ground on the same grinders and sucked out the same hose. If you are afraid of it, you should put a varible speed on the vaccum and slow it down for the steel. After it cools turn it up. If you have as much as eight foot from the closest grinder to the pot it should not be a problem.

My 2 cents worth.

Chuck

[cheftjcook]

I a set up small dust collection system for my wood shop. very simple plastic plumbing with gates or ports to add hoses and open for use when needed. All running back to a 5 gallon pail then into a large shop vac.
As I was learning about them and useing mine I discovered a neat bit of science. As the wood shavings and dust pass thru they create tremondous static electric. Great enough to start a fire in a tube or worse in the bin and give one heck of a shock if you run your hand on the pvc. I had to take apart the tubes and ground the system with a copper wire leads running thru. I think Sears sold the ground system for theirs so I copied the Idea and thankfully have had no problems. Later spoke to a gentleman at a large wood mill and a lady at a grain mill who both explained how dangerous the static is and the potential for large explosions can be.

[JPH]

Ok all:

Let me clarify here...

First: Anyone who has read my books or watched my videos know that I am very safety conscience..I wear a very good respirator/filter NOT one of those "paper mask' things either (one reason they call me "Darth Atar" when someone calls and I am grinding...ehahahahaaaaa)

Second: I have done the "water in the bucket" thing and frankly it's not working very well..I still have a dust/grit problem...see below

Third: when I was cleaning after this last RPFS run I literally had a 3/4" thick layer of dust/grit/dander/what ever ya wanna call it on my shelves and any other horizonal surface in the studio.. OK granted I was really pushing production but day-um there has got to be a better way here. THis was some nassy stuff!!!

What I am worried about is this..Fire... I grind/sand wood and other flammables on the same equipment that I grind metals on. Call me paranoid,m a chicken or a great big poo-poo head fopr worrying about this stuff but I do NOT have ANY desire to burn down my studio.

Vacuum systems are a whole new ball game to me.I am more than a little bit of a Luddite here.....but I do know this..combustible materials..sparks and an air flow spell F-I-R-E to this old boy scout and THAT is something I do NOT want...Well not in this instance anyway..

But I gotta do something cause this last studio cleaning I looked like Al Jolson singing "Mammy" in blackface....(boy this sure dates me huh?? How many of you folks know who the Christry's Minstrels were?? NOT the new guys..the REAL ones...{NO fair looking them up on the 'net either}....)..

So I am looking for info..I am healthy..my lungs are great and all (I just got my results back from my annual Nevada Guard physical..so yeeeeehaaaa..to the dismay of my troops the "Old Man" will be around a bit longer....) and I intend to stay this way...but I really need to address this grit/dust problem..

JPH

[oakwoodforge]

Using plastic pipe will give you bad static every time, use metal duct and make sure to ground it every so often. JPH My thought was to have a " intake" behind a grinder with a pipe going streight down into a settling / spark arresting chamber consisting of a sealable container ( bucket with a lid or rubbermaid tub ) with a few inches of soapy water. Container then attached to the vacuum system, that should reduce any chance of a fire. My high school shop had a regular old dust collector system, we would grind into the intake at the same time someone else was sanding wood into another, never had any fires , but that dosen't mean its impossible.

Jens

[cheftjcook]

I understand wanting to use metal duct or plumbing for evacuation. But it still needs to be grounded at all times. The advandtages to a clear plastic pvc as sold in sears or woodworking stores is if you get a clog/ blockage (murphy's law it will happen) you can visualy spot it & clear it. The second advandtage they slide together for an tight fit with out any permanent glues or tools etc. yet can be taken apart quickly to fix a clog or add on or rerouted. The third advantage is the common availablity of the air gates or ports that are all made to fit the pvc with no alterations and the gates all fit a standard shop vac hose for connection to what ever equipement needs the vac.

I have 7 ports set on my system now, not that they are all needed or all used at once, I have a small shop in the basement. But as I move from lathe to sander or chop saw to drill press I only need close one air gate and open an other. I used the clear anywhere I had short twisted turns or bends but on long straight runs where a clog was less likely I ran the less expensive pvc.
If you have a section that does not fit as snug as you would like a quick wrap of duct tape fixes it right quick.
Regular pvc did not offer the visual benifit but still offers the quick setup/breakdown to fix problems and it matched well with the clear stuff I was using. In retrospect I could have gone all clear just as easy.

Sears sells great kits and add-ons that realy make life easy to get started
they and others also sell a special lid for a standard 5 gallon pail that causes a kind of vortex effect to help with clean up, maintence, add alittle water and it also helps with fire suppresion from sparks.