Judson Yaggy Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 So after reading the Google patent search on Massey hammers Frosty posted in another thread and reading the pages on the Anvilfire home built self contained hammer (look in the Catalog of user built hammers) I have a few questions. As no one in my area has a self contained hammer that I can measure the cylinders on, does anyone know if there is a typical cubic inch of displacement per pound of tup weight? Or to put it another way, does anyone have a hammer that they can measure the cylinders on, something like a Nazel 1b or 2b? (or Massey or Beche or Anyang or Striker or those Russian or Turkish things?) I'm aiming for a 125# hammer. Most of the hammer drawings and pictures I've found show the compressor piston having a larger diameter than the tup piston. I assume that this is to allow a short throw from the crank to push a large volume of air, but is there another reason? Also, machining larger parts shouldn't be an issue but it'd be nice to know how to tolerance them. Should I assume that hammer cylinders and pistons should have similar clearances to those found in air compressors? Should have been an engineer like my Grampy... Nah, this is more fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloscheider Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 check out the KA75 Striking Hammer - you can clearly see the cylinders and one is larger than the other. I had the pleasure of seeing one of these in action last weekend and was thoroughly impressed! I have never witnessed that level of control and precision in a power hammer before...The KA75 Striking Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 (edited) That's a totally different system, the Kick ass is fed by an external compressor and doesn't cycle... It's more like an air-powered treadle hammer The data below are from Chinese Anyang copies. Ram weight (kg) / Ram cyl. diam (mm) / Pump cyl. diam (mm) 16 / 115 / 125 20 / 150 / 155 25 / 165 / 170 40 / 200 / 205 75 / 235 / 240 Hope it helps ;) Edited May 2, 2009 by Madmike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Just a word of warning, self contained hammers are incredibly difficult to get working properly. The air schematics on the Massey look simple (and to an extent they are) but the devils in the detail. Balancing the whole system to give the range of work / control you need is difficult on an old hammer when youve got all the bits there, and you know what your doing. It would be quite an achievment on a home build. The old self contained hammers were designed by teams of brilliant victorian engineers, and all the steam train engineering technolgy was available at the time. They also had big budgets and lots of facilities. Im not saying you cant make somthing that will bump up and down a bit, but dont expect it to work like an industrial unit. Any weak spots in your design will quickly show, when your pushing that volume of air around its going to get hot (very hot) as well as all the friction generated by the piston rings. All your air passages atc need to be smooth to minimise restrictions to the air (no elbows etc). Standard clerances on pistons and valves are 0.001" per inch of diameter. Your compressor piston needs to generate more air than you need, and you then bleed some of it off to atmosphere via drilled holes or similar to help you balance the system, ie design it to make to much air and then loose some, which is better than the other way round!!! Good luck with it, looking forward to seeing what you come up with ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted May 2, 2009 Author Share Posted May 2, 2009 Thanks guys! Mad Mike, those #'s are great confirmation that I'm on the right track. John N- I'm aware of your vast experience and your words of caution have been received loud and clear. I've got several mechanical hammers to keep the paying work going out the door and this is a "for fun" project so if it takes several years of messing around to get right that's ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Hey Judson, Hope I diddnt come accross as to 'you cant do it' in my above post, it will be a real fun project. Before you embark it may be worth doing some research into the design of the Alldays & Onions hammer (aka pilkington) they have an altogether much simpler valve arrangement which would be much easier to replicate succesfully on a home built machine, and they work well. In a nutshell they only have a top air port in the ram bore, which lifts the ram by vaccume on the down stroke of the compressor piston. The ram does not have a 'head' on it (solid bar with a guide flat milled on the back), has no piston rings, and doesnt need an air seal around the gland (since no air is entered under the ram). keep us posted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted May 24, 2009 Author Share Posted May 24, 2009 For anyone interested I found this site on an A&O hammer rebuild. Thanks for the lead John. Alldays & Onions Air Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 Mike is one of my favorite guys. You should've heard the ribbing we gave him about his "friction" drive. Of course we were just jealous he didn't ask us to drive. Frosty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 Progress report- Prongs of attack on the hammer project are as follows. I'm currently grinding my 1700# anvil mass flat and square with a home made rig not unlike a big surface grinder. Have a 400# base plate and a BIG hunk of I beam for a backbone. Have a 28" diameter by 320# fly wheel and big electric motor and switches off a punch press I converted to hydraulics a while ago. Have bolted a big crank onto the flywheel to run the back piston. As I write there is a piece of round stock chucked up in my lathe to be turned into the valve body. I'm thinking of making a hybrid valve, a cross between the Massey one from the patent and the Alldays one shown in one of the pics in the above link. Two air passages in one valve body, each with a check like the Massey, but with rectangular slots and a flapper type check as in the A&O. Any comments? John noted the difficulty in balancing systems on air hammers. My first inclination would be to install an adjustable, one way, pressure release valve where needed. I suspect that it would need to allow a fairly high volume out when needed, and my brief look thru the McMaster catalog didn't yield many clues to volume ratings of their release valves. Anyone have any ideas or am I in for machining another part? Thanks everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I wish you good luck, I'm sure I'll love this post Keep going on, keep telling us, and please take some pictures ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 Further Google Patent searching turned up this hammer, like the A&O the tup is returned just from vacuum. PNEUMATIC HAMMER - Google Patent Search Will post some photos soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 What about a variable displacement back cylinder? Too complicated I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewOC Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 A question to JohnN about Alldays & Onions hammers. Do all the tups bounce up and down? I used to work under a 2 cwt that was probably past its best, the thing was noisy as well! Judson J keep on with the project, do you has pics of the B S Massey 'clear space' valving, quite innovative i think. I am rather baised toward them. regards AndrewOC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 I had a Swedish made hammer that may have been made under license fro A&O. It was a "Nohab". 50Kg. Friend of mine, Paul Casey, has the hammer now and it's working well and he loves it. Seems strange, Without the anvil the ram falls right out. The ram is just a round slug with a large flat in the back. Just uses vacuum to raise the ram, hits good with good control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 Arftist- Yeah, too complicated for a first hammer, thou maybe just having an adjustable throw on the pitman pushing the rear cylinder would do the trick. Perhaps next time. However, such an idea hasn't turned up anywhere else, you may be on to something... Andrew- I don't have pics of the clearspace valving. If you have some I'd love to see them, as probably would others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusb Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 Digging this up from the graveyard. How did the hammer turn out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 Ha! Blast from the past! Stupid paying work keeps getting in the way. Rear crank and cylinder push air, piston rings I machined out of UHMWPE figuring I could swap them out for bronze later if the thing actually worked. Treadle linkage drives a rack and pinion welded to the outside end of a fabricated and machined barrel valve between the two pistons. Rotational positions of the valve allow for no flow, limited to full flow, and various one way (check valve?) flows to allow pressure/vaccume consistancy for a given foot position. Highly inspired by the Aldays design. Have not connected the front piston to the tup. Did I mention paying work getting in the way? Not to mention the Champion #1 I bought and restored in the meantime. I have other functional hammers so like I said before, this is a for fun project. Will get around to finishing it someday... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 My word, I miss Grant. I'll strike the power hammer 3 times in his memory in the AM. Well, truth be told, perhaps 300 times... Bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang...pause for heat...bangbangbang bang bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now