Fullers' radii (or radiuses)

[Grafvitnir]

I hope this is not a dumb question but I want to get it right. Thanks to HWooldridge's excellent explanation on hammer dressing somewhere else in the Forum I understand what a radius on a hammer face, pein and sides mean, but, is it the same for fullers? I mean, you can have a 1/2 inch radius on a 1/4 inch, on a 1/2 or a 1 inch piece of iron and they are all a 1/2 inch fullers? If I use a 1/2 inch round bar as a fuller it is really a 1/4 inch fuller? To have a 1/2 inch fuller I should use a 1 inch round bar for a fuller?

I just want to be sure what does it mean to have a 1/2 inch fuller in term of radius.

Thanks all

Rub

[Jocko 58]

1/2" Radius 1/2" rod 1/4"Rad= 1/4 rod etc Radius = Half the circumferance I think i got that right

[Drewed]

circumferance is the distance around the outside of the bar. Diameter is measured across the center, and radius is 1/2 the diameter.

1" stock has a 1" diameter, 1/2" radius, and approx a diameter of 3.14"

[Grafvitnir]

My question is, what is a 1/2 inch fuller? One in which (look picture included from Stokes' book) Y = 1/2 inch and it does not matter what radius it has; or is it one in which radius is 1/2 inch but it does not matter the Y size as in the second picture included (3 Y sizes but same radius).

Thanks again

Rub

[CBrann]

Drewed, circumference of 3.14",

Also on the topic of fullers and peins which is most effecient a narrow ie 1/4 " radius or a wide radius 3/4 or 1" radius?

I use effeciency in terms of rate of movement of steel in thinning or drawing out.

[Grafvitnir]

OK, the thing went like this. If you ever read the article on making Poz tongs of the Alabama Forge Council it said to fuller a 1/2 inch diameter 1/4 deep and in the "Best of the Forge" Vol. I, it said you used a 1/2 inch fuller for this. Ok, then it is "Y" = 1/2 inch what matters when you refer to a fuller. But then in the "Slitter Geometry" thread Brian Brazeal says:

"The top and bottom fullers have a 1-1/2" radius and are about 1-1/8" wide."

So then it is the radius and not "Y"? It is a 1-1/8 inch fuller with a 1-1/2 inch radius? :confused:

Sorry for all this but I just want to know what is in your minds when you say "I used a 1/2 inch fuller" or whatever

Thanks again.

Rub

Edited May 2, 2009 by Grafvitnir
added a PD.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

From what I just read, I was wrong calling it a 1 1/2" radius. When I make my fullers, I've found it much quicker and easier to undersize the width of the fuller I'm making instead of trying to drive and bottom out the full width in my swage. I've been calling the radius of my fullers according to the diameter of the swage I made them in, my mistake.

[Grafvitnir]

Hi Brian, by the way, your DVD is excellent I finally understood many things about hammer making. No I don't think or even know if you are right or wrong. I just don't know what a 1/2 inch or whatever size fuller, is. I think it might be both, sometimes the radius and sometimes the "Y" or diameter size. I just don't know... That is why I'm asking.

Thank you again

Rub

Edited May 2, 2009 by Grafvitnir
make something clear

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Ruben, I see what you mean. I'm not sure either.

[arftist]

Drewed,

Also on the topic of fullers and peins which is most effecient a narrow ie 1/4 " radius or a wide radius 3/4 or 1" radius?

I use effeciency in terms of rate of movement of steel in thinning or drawing out.

The larger the radius of the fuller, the faster the metal will move, but power consumption increases in proportion.

[nelson]

Hi Ruben,
These terms: radius, diameter, and circunsference are related and often times confused.
Looking at the picture you posted, Y is the diameter, that`s 2 times it`s radius so the radius for that fullering tool is Y/2. The diameter of a cirscunference is the max measure which is the line going through its center from one end of the circle to the oposite. The circunsference is the circle, the round shape line, and it has a measurement going all around, which would be given by this formula: 2 Pi r = 2 x 3.1416 x r (radius). if you wanted to find out the area within that circle, just take the 2 at the front and bring up
2
to the radius to make it square : A = 3.1416x r . Going back to your pic,the fuller is narrower on top than the bottom, this gives better penetration and strength at the base, but what really matters from a blacksmisth stand is the top rounded part, so forget the base which may or may not be broader. Of that round end, Y is the max horizontal measurement, which is the diameter. Actually you could think of that round end as half an orange, namely, half a sphere. The side view is a circle right? so now you know that if someone tells you a 1/2" radius fuller, well you could look at the radius as being the efective height of that round end. I`m including a drawing that hope may be helpful. The drawing shows w and z as two of the many measurements you could get once you pass y (the diameter, or 2x radius). If you understand now what radius and diameter mean, a 1" radius fuller for instance, will be 2" thick (diameter) at that critical height. Hope didn`t get you more confused. nelson.

[jimbob]

Brian, then your 1 1/2 would really be a 3/4 fuller

[John B]

Lets go back to basics as I understand them.

To swage a round diameter in top and bottom tools, the required finished size is the diameter produced ie 1/2" swages produce a 1/2" diameter bar/shank and were stamped with the finished size the pair were to be used for.

The same applied to pairs of fullers (Top and bottom tool one rodded/handled and one to fit the hardy hole or in the swage block).

A 1/2" top fuller would produce a rounded groove for the 1/2" dameter rod to seat snugly into if used on a flat bar.

(This means the radius of the fuller is 1/4" giving a 1/2" diameter groove that may or may not measure 1/2" across depending on the depth the fuller is driven into the workpiece. If the fuller is driven in further than 1/4" then the groove poduced will still seat a 1/2" diameter bar, BUT because the fuller is tapered from the 1/2" width which is the diameter (at 1/4" from the face end), a wider groove will be produced.

Fullering is terminology for an action/operation rather than a specific tool. A fuller is the tool, and they should come in identifiable pairs like top and bottom swages.

I hope this is not even more confusing.

[Grafvitnir]

Brian's hammer fuller would then be a 3/4 inch radius or a 1-1/2 inch diameter fuller but in a 1-1/8 body or "Y". So how is that called? A 3/4" a 1-1/2" or a 1-1/8" fuller? lol.

I was trying to explain the difference between diameter and radius at the beginning of the thread but I think I was not clear enough

Sorry for the mess I'm creating and thank you all for your answers.

Rub

Edited May 2, 2009 by Grafvitnir

[archiphile]

Here is how I see it. If y = 1/2" then the radius is 1/4".

If I have a 1' circle then d=1/2" and r = 1/4".

[John B]

1" diameter circle is 1/2" radius, Radius is 1/2 the diameter.

Pi (3.142) times diameter is circumference of circle, as is 2 times Pi times Radius) {times equals/means multiply by}

2 times radius equal diameter.

Pi times radius squared equals the area covered by the circle.

Volume is the area times the length of the cylinder ie Pi times radius squared times length of cylinder{bar or tube} ( or if vertical the height of the cylinder{bar or tube}
This formula can be used to calculate the volume for a round gas forge chamber.

Further confusion ? or does it clarify the nomenclature/definitions.

Edited May 2, 2009 by John B

[Grafvitnir]

Here I go again

I hope I'm not making this a Byzantine discussion (to have a discussion about a futile subject with no expected outcome.) because I don't want to be seen as someone that deserves a thread about him and his questions.

From the beginning of this, for me, and it seems that for John B also, a 1 inch fuller was like in the first figure of my mspaint drawing attached; i.e., Y=1" or 1 inch diameter or 1/2 inch radius. If I need one and I don't have it I take a 1 inch round and use it as a fuller. It is the same for Brian only that for him it is easier to make them with less "Y" but thinking of them as the full diameter. (more like in the second or middle figure)

I just wanted to know if every one thinks the same because I have never seen a real fuller, only pictures of them in books and internet so I have never been able to measure one to see if a 1" fuller has a 1" Y. So if a project calls for a 1" fuller I want to know what should I make. That's all.

I know if I ask around here, if anyone knows anything about blacksmithing, the answer will something like "a big fuller" or "a medium fuller" (in spanish "un deg

[John B]

Hi Ruben, you can take a 1" diameter bar and this will be the equivalent of a 1" fuller, or a 1/2" diameter bar for a 1/2" fuller. (The tapered wedge effect at the back of the business end is merely for support and loading distribution and sizes will vary with manufacturer and fuller size)

May I suggest going to Vaughans (Hope Works) - Blacksmiths tools and equipment and look at some of the pictures on that page there is a top fuller, and a bottom fuller illustrated, there are other tools also that are labelled so that you can identify what is being talked about

Another site that shows tool details is http://www.blacksmithstools.co.uk/ click on tools and look for what you want to see. show line drawings of what they look like.

I am sure there are other sites eg Centaur Forge that also show or illustrate their tooling and specifications, all should provide information for tooling , what they do and what they look like.

[John B]

Just to add a little more confusion, when does a top fuller become a radiused grooving tool ?

My answer is when the "blade" (Radiused end) is parallel and what do you know, it then evolves into a guillotine tool so that one man can effectively use it to fuller grooves etc

Traditionally the top and bottom fullers were used with the assistance of a striker.

[Grafvitnir]

John B, thank you very much for the links and your answer. That was what I wanted to know, if it was the same I thought

Now I have remorse for my harsh comment on the mexican pseudoblacksmiths I have found. The thing is here in M

Edited May 3, 2009 by Grafvitnir

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Hey, Ruben, here are some pictures of some top and bottom fullers that I have made.

[markh]

Brian,
That is a great supply of fullers. I would like to know which ones you use to make your hammer cheeks. How wide are they and does the radius matter that much? I'm thinking I can just use the part of my swage block that resembles your radius the most. Do you think that will be OK?
Thanks a lot

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Markh, it really depends on what hammer or top tool I am making. I have different top and bottom fullers that match so I get the displacement of material that I choose. It is my job to hold my material and my top tool over my bottom tool so they do what I ask. If I do what I should, the piece practically makes itself. This is what I like most about forging. If you can think it through, you can make it do what you want.
Here are some different examples of hammers, and you can see I use different top and bottom fullers.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Woops, I pressed the wrong button.

[Sam Salvati]

Great photos Brian, thanks very much.