mrmagoolew Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Hi, Guys, I'm new to this blacksmithing stuff, and I have a question about an anvil. Is it possible to repair an anvil that has chipped edges? Could it be welded up and refinished? Would it be better to machine the top off and replace the top with a hardened but tempered piece of tool steel? The top is OK, but the edges are pretty chipped up. I was thinking of starting to try to make some knives, and this would be an anvil I would be starting out on. Thanks, Lew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Welcome aboard Lew, glad to have you. You most certainly can rebuild your anvil but you're more likely to ruin it at this stage than actually improve it. When first starting out most folk think an anvil needs to have a clean flat face, crisp edges and a good shine on it. None of these are really necessary. Crisp, 90* edges are not particularly desirable on an anvil, radiused edges are. A sharp corner causes a stress point when forging a shoulder over it, this is inviting failure, especially during heat treat. A round edge on the other hand makes the corner stronger and less prone to failure. If you do need a crisp edge it's easy to make a stake that fits in the hardy hole with crisp edges. A slightly sway backed face is actually easier to straighten stock on and if the face is nicked up a little it won't hurt the work. You'll need to leave some extra stock for the grinder is all if you're making blades. How about sending some pics of your anvil so we'll have a better idea of what you have to work with. If you'll click "User CP" at the top of the page and edit your profile to show your location it can make a big difference. IFI is represented by members from more than 50 countries and a lot of info is location specific. Also, if local folk know you're there they can invite you to get togethers, tip you to tool deals and offer hands on help. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmagoolew Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 Hi, Frosty, I don't have the anvil. I saw a couple of them on Ebay, but they had chipped edges. I didn't know whether to bid on anything like that or not. A few of them looked pretty bad as far as the edges of the face were concerned. One looked like it had chips as large as a 1/2". I've thought about possibly buying one of the Kowlswa anvils, but they are a lot of money for a beginner. I emailed a place that is supposed to sell them, but haven't gotten a reply yet. I thought of a Peddinghaus, but they are way too expensive for my blood. BTW, What are the most common sizes for hardie and pritchel holes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Browne Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 If you are just starting out why not go to the junk yard and find a large piece of scrap and mount that. Our image of a "proper" anvil includes horn, hardey holes and a really flat surface. While that is a good all round model its not absolutely necessary. If you want to get into blades then have a look at this page and, of course, the rest of the site. Remember, an anvil is just a hard, stable surface for you to hammer on and with the eBay collectors out there the price of good anvils and blowers have gone through the roof so its time to get creative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 As Rob says, a London pattern anvil is a fairly recent invention and not necessary to good work. Keep your eyes open for a heavy piece of steel from RR rail to a piece of shafting a few inches across. Even a truck axle buried flange up makes a nice anvil. That'll allow you to build skill while you continue the search without the pressure. Hardy holes come in all sizes but I think 1" or 1 1/4" is most common. You can improvise a hardy hole by welding a 1" drive impact socket to the side of your improvised anvil or another piece of fairly heavy steel section placed in a handy location but not under foot. You can use a vise instead of a hardy hole if you have a leg vise you can do heavy hammering but if it's a machinist's vise keep the hammering to light work to avoid damaging the vise. The flat surface behind the jaws of a machinist's vise, even if it has a "horn" it is NOT suitable to hammer on harder than setting brass rivets. Frosty Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob JS Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 If you bought a new anvil you would need to grind some of the crisp edges off anyway - I wouldnt want to start grinding on something new or expensive untill I am certain I know what I want in an anvil. Best thing to do is go and view the anvil first, then you can run your hands over it and look for usefull features, such bits of OK edge, big chips you can grind out to make larger radii, a slight dish in the face is usefull for gentle curves and straightening stock. One way of looking at it is the more 'interesting features' an old anvil has the fewer additional tools, swage blocks etc you will need as a beginner. - at least thats my theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmagoolew Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 Thanks, Guys, I was wondering how a block of S7 steel, heat treated of course, about the same size as an anvil would work? I'd want it heavy enough, so it wouldn't be bouncing around. I've worked with S7 before, and it is very impact resistant when heat treated. Right now, I'm unable to find my heat treat book, and I just wouldn't know how hard to make it. RC50 or something like that? Any thoughts? I live near Pittsburgh, Pa. and may be able to get a piece of the S7 off the company that my previous employer dealt with. They sell all kinds of tool steels and carbon steel also. Lew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unkle spike Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 And what would the price of a piece of S7 be that would be big enough to make a decent sized anvil out of? A 2 x 2 x 12 inch piece was around $100 bucks when I was looking for dies for my PH. Plus you would probably have to take it to a commercial heat treater, as most would not have a forge big enough to heat treat it the correct way. (hint: they charge by the pound at most HT places) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Should I Dress These Edges? And did I pay too much? This is a related thread on dressing anvils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucegodlesky Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Lew, if you know anyone who works for McKinney or any of the large drilling companies, investigate getting a piece of kelly bar. They are 4140 and a 100# piece makes for a great anvil. I use mine for straightening blades. bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Ameling Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 A lot of people use a section of Forklift Tine for an anvil. Especially the big commercial pallet mover ones. You get a lot of ... mass ... with them. Two shorter lengths welded side-by-side (and welded on the bottom/back side) give you a lot of working surface. Plus those rounded edges give you lots of angles to play with - including between the two pieces. I have several "drop outs" from a scrap yard that I use for small/specialty work. They are 3 and 4 inches thick! One round and one rectangular. They are not heat-treated, so I do have to be careful about what I am pounding on them. Nicks/dents/dings can be kind of easy to get. But if my work iron is red hot, I don't worry about it. I also have a granite anvil for some Viking/Roman era presentations. A large wedge shape - weighs around 100 pounds. I did a little cleanup on the top flat, but it is still mostly its natural shape. As long as I always have color in the metal, I have not had any problems using it as an anvil. And some of the "rougher" surfaces do give an interesting texture to the iron. I've made small specialty anvils from farm machinery parts. Some of those square and round tool bars from plows and cultivators have a lot of ... mass ... in them. And most are pretty good tool steel as-is. Already heat-treated for toughness more than hardness. A little searching can lead you to some 3x3 or 3x4 inch diameter bars. Plus don't forget about those draw bars from tractors and bulldozers. More great flat heavy steel. Sometimes evil-bay can be a good source. But way too many "collectors" to compete against. Check out some of the antique/junque shops near you. And ASK them about anvils. Some times they have them, but stashed in the basement or back room - because they are so big/heavy. Over the years I've gotten 2 good 100+ pound anvils from antique stores. And they were happy to get that "hunk of junk" out of there. Ditto fleamarkets. Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 A kelly bar would make a dandy anvil but it is a bit soft for heavy work. Typically, they are heat treated to about 285-341 Brinnel which is about 28-32 Rc. Drill Collars are made of the same material and heat treated to about the same hardness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmagoolew Posted May 5, 2009 Author Share Posted May 5, 2009 Yea, I was thinking more like a block about 4" X 12" X 24", and taking it to a heat treat shop about 4 miles from here. They have done plenty of work for my previous employer, and have pick up and delivery. Living here in the steel city of Pittsburgh, I'll probably have no problem getting the steel. It's just what it will cost. I'll look into it, but may change my mind if the costs involved will be too high. If I can deal with the same steel company that my employer dealt with, I can probably even have the raw block delivered to my house. I'd have to see if it would need ground, then I can take it into heat treat. Maybe, if I can get it all together, I'll even get some handling holes drilled and threaded for 3/4" eyes for lifting. I'll have to make some calls, ASAP. Lew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmagoolew Posted May 6, 2009 Author Share Posted May 6, 2009 Well, Guys, I got an answer for the S7 steel block. Way too much money. I contacted a local company here, and got a quote of roughly $1,425, delivered from Chicago. I did manage to find a used anvil locally, and I'm supposed to go look at it either tonight or tomorrow. The guy told me it was a forged anvil, and about 450#. I'm supposed to get it for $475. I didn't really want an anvil that big, but for the price, if it's in good shape, I guess I'll be getting it. Lew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 If it's in good shape and a good brand snatch it up! And then take it to Quad-State and trade it for a smaller anvil and a couple hundred dollars... I got my 407# Trenton from a fellow that was tired of moving it but didn't want to give up the possibility of smithing. Traded him a 125# PW, a screw and screwbox from a postvise and $100 cash and we were *both* happy with the deal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmagoolew Posted May 8, 2009 Author Share Posted May 8, 2009 Well, whether it is or isn't a good brand, I picked it up last night. It was too dark to see much, and it's still sitting in the back of my pick up right now. It had been painted over so many times, that I don't see anything on it. I'm thinking about getting some paint remover and trying to clean it up. Should I do that? Maybe then, I'll be able to see some identifying marks. The only thing I didn't like about the anvil, was that someone appears to have drilled a couple of holes into the surface just in front of the face, up towards the horn. I doubt if they were there from the factory, so I'm thinking of cleaning up the threaded holes and plugging them with hardened bolts, cutting them off close, then grinding them down to flush, and calling it good enough. Any thought on the repairs? Thanks, Lew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 First: Do No Harm! Some types of anvils have extra puching holes in them. If they are not in the way plugging them may remove a useful feature Do they go all the way through? Could you use them for mounting specialized dies? With a big anvil you can start thinking of dies you mount securely and then use a sledge hammer on. (I would suggest off setting the dies from the holes though so the force is over the center of mass on the anvil. If they are terribly in the way for your style of work *then* think of filling them in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reid Neilsen Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I'd be more inclined to just make tools that replace the sharp edges, like a anvil "block" with a shank that fits in the hardie hole, etc. These can save you the trouble of trying to refnish. You can make sharp shoulders on a block as well as you can on the edge of the anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmagoolew Posted May 14, 2009 Author Share Posted May 14, 2009 Hi Guys, I doubt if I'd be using that area on the anvil. When I get set up, I'd like to start making some knives, and there is plenty of space on the face to do all the pounding. I'm new to all this stuff, and have visions of making larger camp or survival type chopping knives. I'd like to start out with something like a 10" cutting edge and go up from there. At least the anvil is a good start. Thanks, Lew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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