Show me your Bottle Openers!

[beammeupscotty]

I posted these over on r/blacksmith and thought I would put them up here too.  This is a new-to-me texture, the technique and tooling was posted over on reddit by Karn3.  I have been playing around with this for a couple of days to figure out the best way to use the tooling, which is just a bottom swage and a similarly textured hammer.

 

 

[Frosty]

Ooh, very viney. Pics of the die please?

Frosty The Lucky.

[beammeupscotty]

Ooh, very viney. Pics of the die please?

Frosty The Lucky.

​Pretty simple.

[arkie]

scotty, Those openers are beautiful...great work!  I like the way you textured the "vine", but even more so how you twisted it around itself on the loop.  Kool !!

[beammeupscotty]

Thanks  Arkie.  One of the most intriguing aspects of blacksmithing to me is the way it is possible to take something normally considered rigid and cold like steel and turn it into something that looks almost organic.  

[beammeupscotty]

Here is another one along the same lines.  The next event I will be selling openers at is the S.F. Cider Summit on the 25th of this month, so I thought I would take a stab at making an apple related opener.

After that one I decided to put an opener I wasn't terribly thrilled with together with a leftover element from another piece that didn't work out aesthetically either. The result is a snail on a leaf.

 

[VaughnT]

thank you for the complements. I might have to kick up the price

​You'd better kick up the price on those openers!  That's every bit of a twenty-dollar bill, and don't let anyone tell you different.  You need to remember to value your work like it deserves to be valued.  Blacksmiths are rather rare in the world today and what you're producing can't be found at every gas station and big box store.  Even my most basic opener is always priced above $20 simply because I'd rather not sell them than let them go for a loss.  The way I look at it, the folks that spend $25-35 for a bottle opener are the kind of folks that will appreciate it and take care of it.

I forged a rather nice opener the other day.  It's meant to resemble an old strap hinge, like some poor fellow in the countryside needed to pop a top and used what was handy to make an opener.  The finial is thin enough that it can be used to wedge open a can's tab.

 

[Everything Mac]

 

 

[lawman]

I'm Gettin closer to figuring out how Black Frog makes those openers............more practice is still required.

Think I'm gonna make a steak flipper on the other end of this guy.

How do you guys keep the mill scale off of em. I have a hard time keeping em smooth.  once it scales up I cant seem to get it off. Even tried hitting em with a wire brush on a low speed grinder when they are red hot and it just don't come off for me.

I cant seem to brush it enough to keep in scale free.

[Everything Mac]

You can brush the scale off just as it comes out of the forge. Personally I take a wire cup to mine after I'm done with them. The scale usually comes off easily enough. 

Perhaps you're being too gentle with it? 

Andy

[Frosty]

Are you using a solid fuel or gas forge? Is it scaling in the forge? HOT steel will scale after you draw it out regardless.

The scale should clean up if you're brushing it hot, high red - med orange. If it's building scale quickly you can flux it to keep air off. I've done this a few times but it can get messy splashing molten borax when you hit it with a hammer. It's apron time if you use much or are forging flat areas.

Another wire brush tip is to NOT push too hard. The wire's tips are what really do the work, typically I put almost no pressure on the wheel and it cuts very aggressively. You can put more pressure on a twisted wire cup brush because the bristles are dense. The down side is they don't get into little nooks and crannies as well.

If you put much pressure on a wire brush you bend the bristles over so instead of the tips scratching along the wire is lying flat on the work not doing much. Visualize scratching with the end of a stick compared to dragging it laying flat. Which is going to get the dry plaster off the floor?

You can clean the scale in a vinegar, citric acid or muriatic acid. Personally I like citric acid best, it's not as fast nor dangerous as muriatic acid and it's much faster than vinegar.

A tumbler will put a nice finish on them depending on the abrasives you use. Old steel slugs, nuts, bolts, trimmings from the anvil, etc. make a nice burnished finish. Stone and ceramic tumbling media leave more of a sand blast finish though you can use a progression of grits and mirror polish if you like.

Of course you can sand or bead blast but I personally don't like the mess or cabinet but that's just me.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Note. the piece comes with "mill scale" from the steel mill; to prevent that you buy it P&O  pickled and oiled---like cold rolled generally comes. What you get when forging is just scale and as mentioned it's pretty much a given working hot steel on an atmosphere containing O2 (You could forge in a N2 tent using an induction forge for heating to prevent it...)  If your forge is producing too much scaling  you are getting too much air in it and it's not all getting burnt up leaving free O2 to scale the work piece. (often a problem with gas forges that are not tuned neutral to reducing).  Not leaving a piece in the forge for long times helps too.

[LastRonin]

Note. the piece comes with "mill scale" from the steel mill; to prevent that you buy it P&O  pickled and oiled---like cold rolled generally comes. What you get when forging is just scale and as mentioned it's pretty much a given working hot steel on an atmosphere containing O2 (You could forge in a N2 tent using an induction forge for heating to prevent it...) 

Don't forget the SCBA (Self Contained Breathing Apparatus), or mask/hhood with air feed and exhaust lines.

[lawman]

Thanks guys. 

I was using my gas forge Frosty. It is scaling in the forge. It continues once I pull it out which I understand. I know its gonna oxidize. 

I'm still wondering if I got my atmosphere wrong. I can leave a RR spike in there a too long and make a 16th" or thicker mill scale crust on the whole thing if I ain't careful. I don't know if thats normal or not.  Ive haven't used anyone else's forge enough to know if this is common but I have read on here that some folks have theirs set where it doesn't scale at all.  That leads me to believe that I might have a problem with my air mix.

At any rate when  pull it out and hit it with a wire wheel the scale don't always give it up. Ive been living with it as I think it adds a bit of character sometimes.....But there will be a time when that isn't the case so I probably ought to figure this out at some point. I'll start paying a little closer attention to this aspect of it.

The tumbler is also a interesting Idea........I see a new piece if equipment in my future.

Lawman 

[ThomasPowers]

Please; it's not "mill scale" it's *scale*.  Unless you are a steel mill?

So adjust the choke, a lot of forges need to be adjusted after the forge warms up as well as when you start off cold. 

Edited May 16, 2015 by ThomasPowers

[lawman]

   Not Mill Scale Huh.........All righty then.............I will adjust my terminology. You're the first person to correct me.....But you knew what I was talkin about didn't ya

I wasn't trying to stir controversy. I am aware that it is going to happen no matter what and I expect it to, so I don't see a need for the N2 tent and egress pack.  My question was about dealing with it when the wire brush or wire wheel on the grinder seems insufficient to get it back to bare metal. You guys make it look easy to deal with some times and that is not exactly what I was experiencing.  Maybe i'm expecting too much. I don't dislike the way it looks just thought I might be doing something wrong.

I built my propane forge before I ever discovered this site and its wealth of information. I watched a few youtube videos bought some Koawool and got after it. It works and has gotten me to this point but it may need some refinement.

 As far as choaking back the air .....I don't have any more to choak.........I'm using a heat gun as a blower and the inlet is already as closed as it gets. .......I will figure something out, but I don't want to modify my heat gun. Its a valuable tool on its own. Guess I could employ a little duck tape and see if that makes a difference.

My next one will be a dual burner self aspirated and I intend to do a bit more research on burner design and lining before I run off half cocked again.

Anyway, Maybe time for a little redesign work.

Thanks for the info.

[Frosty]

You're running an oxidizing fire in the forge. Either turn up the propane or turn down the air. If you must just aim the blow drier so it's not lined up on the air pipe. Look for a LITTLE orange in the dragon's breath and it's reducing.

It may come across as picky or semantic games but there is a big difference in some seeming little details in the jargon. Mill scale is WAY different than the home made variety we make. Forge scale is loosely adhered and often flakes off if the piece is quenched in water. Do NOT try that trick with even medium carbon steel!! Mill scale has survived many mechanical brushings, water sprays and rollers and if very hard to remove. In the home shop you're looking at an acid bath or grinding to clean up mill scale.

Thomas isn't being picky, the correction is like you telling a trainee on the range to NOT pick up a weapon till the word is given. Sure it's not that serious but it's important none the less, they're two different things requiring two different treatments.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

soak overnight totally submersed in cheap household vinegar and then wash the scale off under running water with a scrub brush the next morning.  Muriatic acid is faster but more dangerous and the fumes rust all tools within about a bowshot.

[lawman]

Thanks again fellas....

I didn't take Thomas' reply as being picky or anything other than honest information in my last response ......I was more making light of my own ignorance than anything else. One thing I have learned about these forum conversations is some times we infer a tone of voice that might not be what the person who typed a reply really meant at all. Body language and tone of voice seems to be pretty important when you are trying to make fun of yourself or place a comment in context. When you type it , it's pretty much up to the interpretation of the reader I guess......... 

Frosty,

When you are speaking of the dragons breath you are talking about what is coming out the door of the forge right? I suppose this could be another mis-understanding that I have been carrying around. The flame that is coming out of the door of the forge is orange with some blue.......probably 50% blue or less depending on how much propane I shoot to it but that is probably where I run it most of the time to keep it under control were it don't burn you eyebrows off when you approach

The flame coming out of the burner is pure blue.

Either way i'm sure you are right about the oxidizing........my work scales up quick in the forge.

Thanks Thomas, I will try that vinegar trick.

Lawman

[Frosty]

Yes, the "dragon's breath" is the exhaust flame exiting the door or exhaust port if you built a forge with doors that close tight. Can you post a pic of your forge from a little distance at heat from the side across the door so I can get a look at the flame color. One straight in so I can get a look at the burner flame too. That way I can give you a fair reading on how your fuel air ratio is set.

There are a couple other factors that can cause scaling even if the air fuel is neutral or even rich. The shape of my forge chambers tend to draw fresh air in at the corners so if I run the burners neutral I get scale in the forge.

The pic is my shop forge coming up to heat. this is more rich than most forges need to prevent scaling in the forge but as you can see this one has square chambers with sharp corners so fresh air gets drawn in in the corners. The excess fuel burns the oxy so my steel stays clean. This is a fair example of a good angle to show both dragon's breath and the inside temperature of the forge.

The bricks cantilevered over the doors is to help deflect the exhaust away from the burner intakes or it sputters and runs REALLY rich before it blows itself out. I think this pic is 2 or more years old, I have a different deflector on it now.

The second pic shows the burner flames though it's hot enough they're almost invisible. They show best just as the forge starts to show color, they've stabilized in the hot chamber but it's still dark enough they show well.

These pics were during test firings after it's second reincarnation. The forge no longer has a soft fire brick lid, they're just to susceptible to thermal cycling so I only use them for partition walls.

Frosty The Luck

[lawman]

This is what the dragons breath looks like as I normally run it.

 

 

 

This is what it looks like when I crank Up the propane

 

Edited May 17, 2015 by lawman

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Not to get on you guys, but this may need to be moved to the gas forge section if it is going to go on for much longer....

 

[Frosty]

It could probably use to be a LITTLE richer so you don't get quite so much scale.

Guns has a point, maybe we should take the burner tuning to the forge section.

Frosty The Lucky.

[lawman]

I agree

 

[Frosty]

I'll see a notification next time you post where ever it is on the forum. It's be just plain silly to argue with . . . Guns wouldn't it.

I'll be on a road trip this week end so if you don't hear from me . . .we ain't surfing the web.

Frosty The Lucky.