How do you set a price on your work

[Frosty]

Once your quality hits a good level it's entirely possible to underprice yourself out of the market too.

There's nothing really necessary about hand forged products, they're luxuries people buy to please themselves. A LOT of people find pleasure in outdoing their friends, neighbors, etc. So they're looking for bragging rights, not bargains.

For example I was doing a blacksmithing demo at the state fair some while back in association with two other guys, one only showed once for maybe half an hour but the other guy was there full time just like I was. My main demo was a simple leaf hook, I can pack a lot of techniques into one in the 10 mins or so an audience is likely to pay attention.

If a youngster from the audience helped, turning the blower crank or on occasion with parental permission holding the tongs while I vein I'd give it to them as wages for the help. Then I'd add they didn't have an excuse to not hang up their coat anymore just to score an extra point with the parents. PR, demos are about PR, marketing and being memorable.

Those I did solo I tossed on my little steel table with the sign asking $10 ea. and $35 for a set of four. I hardly ever sold one and my oh so knowledgeable associate kept telling me I was asking too much they weren't worth more than $6, tops. After listening to the guy for the better part of a week I decided to go ahead and change the price on them.

When he came back from lunch an hour later he found I'd turned the card over and changed the price to $19.95 ea. and $75 for a set of four. What really ticked him off was all my hooks were gone. I had to start refusing to sell the display hooks so there'd be something to show.

What hardly sold at all for $10 sold like hotcakes for just under $20. Exactly the opposite of what my ex-associate insisted was the case. Even with solid evidence he continued to insist I didn't know how to price my work, asking WAY too much.

Bragging rights, think bragging rights. Who's going to brag about buying cheap hand wrought work? BUT if you sell him/er something to hang that s/he can point to and brag about how expensive it is to buy EXCLUSIVE UNIQUE HAND MADE items . . .

Just don't be stubborn about it. If it doesn't work change it.

Frosty

Edited April 25, 2009 by Frosty

[Steve Sells]

having been making blades fora while now, I have a sq in price for each pattern I do. plus the mountings etc, I built a database, so I am fairly consistent on final price, even tho one blade may occasional take longer or shorter. For non blade work I have a standard hourly shop rate plus materials.

A reminder: when pricing your material remember your TIME to get and stock those as well as the delivery costs its easy to not remember until after the project is finished that you had an hour at the scrap yard for collecting those materials and putting them away, or the half hour in line at the supply house to get the welding rods and flux. That is all billable time when they are used.

[billp]

Will today I came across an example of being priced out of range.
My wife and I took the day to make a road trip to the town of Paris Tn. to the world's largest catfish fry. The wait in line was long, the fish so, so, but the learning experience came before all that. We got out walking the town square just to look around a bit to find and go into a metal shop. Now as I could tell this so called shop did not make anything but sold a number of tables, chairs, lanterns and so on at quite in expensive prices including renting pieces for weddings. As we walked in we saw a metal chandelier hanging in the entrance. It was the very thing my wife wanted for the back yard patio and was going to be my first big project to make for her. But this one was perfect on top of that it was only $69.00, I could not believe it. I though for sure it had to be $160.00 at least. But when the sales person thought it was $79.00 at first I knew it was not a mistake. Then as we kept looking around something was said by her about making a trip soon to buy more pieces to put in the shop. That's when I realized they much be going into Mexico somewhere, where labor is very cheep and that's how they sell so low. Now the work was not bad in face it was quite good for bending and welding 1/2" to 5/8" round bars, 3/4" flat and 1" to 1 1/2" channel. Matter of fact I took a number of pictures with my phone to see if I might make the same items at home. Which coping I no is not a good thing on my part but considering that these are more then likely mass make I felt no guilt.

But how do you deal with that? Now I could add a few extra twist curls and turns to fancy it up a bit and make it more personal but still hard to compete. I'm tickled I got the chandelier for such a good price but some what concerned about this kind of possible threat. I'm just grateful this type of shop does not exist in to many places, not for my sake but for those of you who can do this type of job and do it better. As the public would rather settle for cheap then really good. For me it was a case of finding something I could get for less then the time and trouble it would take for me to make the same thing.
Bill p.

Edited April 26, 2009 by billp

[David Einhorn]

Since I live near Gettysburg, PA and have had "friends" a few years ago that had shops there that sold to Civil War (CW) reenactors, I reluctantly acceded to the requests of these folks to make them ironwork. Being a vendor to that cliental is a challenge to stay in business, and the two gentlemen I was supplying closed their doors because they could not survive financially. They struggled daily to find and sell quality merchandise to a market reluctant to pay for quality, and at the same time take proper care of themselves and their families. Vendors that sold cheap imitations survived. Such is the truth about the “evil sutlers” that overcharge reenactors.

Any new item that I put in their shops appeared as cheap and sloppy copies in a matter of weeks in many other shops in town. I was a bit disappointed when they started buying and selling cheap versions in their stores, but I could understand their struggle to survive. Besides, I really didn’t want to make that junk anyway. Historically, CW soldiers did not carry around more than they had too, especially heavy iron stuff. Tent stakes were wood; cooking was in a pit or circle of rocks just like the old boy scout manuals.

I have a additional worries about historical events besides the potential financial harm to professional blacksmiths and vendors. Most stuff sold at CW reenactments reinforces the expectation that “real” blacksmith stuff is crudely made by unskilled smiths, since much of the stuff is badly formed, bent, and dinged. As I said above, a lot of the stuff is not historically correct. Yes, there may have been a few examples actually used during the CW, but an encampment should *not* have an overabundance of ironwork, railroad lanterns, modern chairs and other conveniences.

For more years than I would like to admit to, I have tried to instill in the public’s mind that smiths were and are professionals, providing quality product at an honest price. Since the 1970s, the number of individuals practicing blacksmithing has increased from a relative handful to many thousands. While we always seemed to have individuals selling ironwork for less than it cost to make it, eventually the decrease in their bank balance eventually ran them out of business. With the increase in the numbers of smiths came the increase in numbers of individuals selling to the public at bargain prices, and at the same time “educating” the public that they were providing historically correct ironwork, at the same low quality as smiths used to produce, and at a “fair” price. The “fair” price defined too often as half or one-third as the price asked by other smiths and vendors.

I admit to being at a loss. I feel that I have been partaking in a loosing effort to educate the public on the quality, honesty, and professionalism of blacksmiths. With the increase in the number of people going to historical presentations and reenactments, and the advent of the Internet (and EBay) where smiths can advertise their wares, extremely large numbers of people are being exposed to information that says that blacksmiths produced banged up bend stuff, that it has to be crude and “textured” (dinged) to be authentic, and that blacksmiths tend to over charge for their work.

I just don’t know what to do about this mountain of misinformation. Polite suggestions welcomed.

That's when I realized they much be going into Mexico somewhere, where labor is very cheep and that's how they sell so low. .......As the public would rather settle for cheap then really good. ......
Bill p.

Edited April 26, 2009 by UnicornForge

[DKForge]

Great post Unicornforge. Very well stated and true.

[jimbob]

I think its more the mind set of the people buying "It has to look hand made" some how that carries the connotation that is cheap and pourly made!

[easilyconfused]

Unicornforge, all you can do is get the information out there and hope one person listens. If they do, you've won because that's how mindsets change. One head at a time. Unfortunately that's how the misinformation starts too. Just know you're doing the right thing for you and that's all you can do and don't expect miracles from people, considering everything else society does for fun (read: Jackass the TV show, break.com, etc).

Me and my girlfriend were talking and we're thinking the recession may help things a bit. Yes there will be the ones that still shop at walmart because they have to, heck I'm one, but garage sales and kijiji have been getting pick over more and more and we're thinking that the recession may just push the arts and craft and green movement more mainstream as people have started wanting stuff to last. Thanks to the smiths before us pushing through, more people are looking at handmade stuff for its uniqueness as well as the care that usually goes into it.

[David Einhorn]

My humble understanding is that there are two ways to make something look "hand made".

First is to "break edges" and provide an organic look and feel to a piece.

Second is the accidental dings and dents that a person may or may not know how to avoid in their work.

I may not be the brightest person in the world, but if something looks like it was run over by a truck it may not be a good example of quality.

I think its more the mind set of the people buying "It has to look hand made" some how that carries the connotation that is cheap and pourly made!

[Mike Ameling]

Ah, the modern "hand made" look. For some flat plate door hardware we made for a new restaurant, we had to "texture" the plates to make them look - hand forged -- dent/break all the edges, and put ball peen hammer marks over the rest of the surface. And then make the mounting bolts look like peened over rivets. Yes, it looked great in the dim light of the restaurant (actually in any light), but it also was several hours of tap-tap-dinging to put those little "facet" dents in all of it. And then the menu holders for the waitresses were an Omega shaped adaptation of a scotch broiler with a bit of cage/grill work connecting it to a back plate. They loved it all - and that was the important part.

And it all looked "hand made" or "hand hammered/forged".

Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

[Leland]

I know this is going to be kind of hard to answer in some ways but as I'm starting to get going I was just wondering how would I price what I make. For starts I'm doing mostly things for use around a camp fire or use in camp in general. I know what I payed for the materials, and charcoal or coal, but then theres equipment use and your time. Again as I learn I will start off using a lot of time but as I get a routine down time will improve.

Then again what are people willing to pay with Wal-Mart and Home Depot even the local hardware store to compete with kind of puts you in a fix to compete. On top of the fact some people thinking hand made is cheep no matter how good it is with only a few truly appreciating the effort and skill it took to make what you sell. :confused:

So, I ask those of you with much more experience to please give me some ideas. I don't look to be doing much soon nor do I look to get rich quick. I might be slow to catch on but I'm not stupid either. But with me making things for my grandson, and son-in-law to use in there camping with scouts I anticipate some of the other parents asking and maybe even buying some of the same items I make for them. As there big camp outs are now family affairs here involving everyone and not the every boy for his self, hope to survive, kind of camp out we had back in my day.

Which by the way my grandson was surprised that scouting had been around that long for me to have been a scout. And yes he got a slap on the back of the head for that one but not from me but from his mother, my daughter.

Bill P

Hey, Bill:

Good luck selling the products of your craft!

Cost of production data can help you establish a selling price point below which you cannot sell a product or service and remain in business, but the COP has no relevance to the actual retail price of a good or service.

Selling price is determined by the buyer (or an aggregate of buyers, known collectively and anonymously as the "market"). What "X" cost to produce is irrelevant to this buyer, whose demand is the only determining factor in making a purchase decision. Supply and demand -- you know, basic economics.

In my business, I add a desired profit to my COP and use that as my initial offering price for "X." If demand is strong, I raise the price until sales of "X" flatten out. If demand is weak, the price drops accordingly.

[billp]

Unicorn Forge
I do understand what you are saying when it comes to the re-enacting community. I too re-enacted in Civil War events for about 12 years as a doctor, seeing that at that time my profession was in Emergency medicine an EMT-IV in Tennessee. It never ceased to amaze me at how even re-enactors had the wrong idea about things. I am grateful that I did belong to a group that tried very hard to be as correct as possible in the look and manor and even behavior at all events. Be they dog and pony shows or true portrayal of the events that took place where we were.
But yes you had to make it look old as if a soldier never bought new items. There seemed to be a never endless fight to ward off new comers to the not so correct sutlers and direct them to the more correct ones. I know even for myself I did carry a lot of things but as a doctor but all was correct and proper as an officer and an educated man would have in that day. Plus the never ending watchful eye of my most beloved teacher who has passed away. He would never let me dress or act wrong cause if I did I got a look and cold stare that told me I was wrong and I did not want to dissapoint Him. So I do feel and understand the frustration knowing how mis information gets out even more so then the truth. But as easily confused stated you can only reach them one at a time and when you do glory in that.

As for making something look old reminded me of an old comedy skit can't remember who did it but. He was selling and antique desk to a lady when she stated it did not look like an antique he pulled out a length of chain beat it across the desk a few times and sold an original antique desk.
Bill P

Edited April 27, 2009 by billp

[meancoyote]

$65.00 an hour. for welding, forging, machining whatever, I just go at $65 an hour. Most of what I do is weld on heavy equipment and trailers and stuff.

[longhunter]

I guess I have a hard time fig that anyone is going to pay 50.00-75.00 hour there maybe some areas I supose . I think that you soon will have the lack of work its like guys that make knives that are nobodys that want to charge 700.00 for a knife and they never got their journeymens stamp or completed there mastersmith test

[Charlotte]

I'd like to remind everyone that you are not selling the steak. You are sellling the Sizzle.

I dislike Donald Trump and much that he stands for but one thing you learn from his television program is that presentation is everything in retail marketing.

[dablacksmith]

I guess I have a hard time fig that anyone is going to pay 50.00-75.00 hour there maybe some areas I supose . I think that you soon will have the lack of work its like guys that make knives that are nobodys that want to charge 700.00 for a knife and they never got their journeymens stamp or completed there mastersmith test

Which is why i dont make knives for a liveing... Its not to hard to get 5-6 dollars for a s hook and i can make 10 of those a hr easy... and wall hooks and dinner bells and ...... its only forgeing time i am figureing tho.. i dont make 60 dollars a hr picking up steel so i have it delevered ..there are ways to make a liveing ... also that is retail price whsl is half of that .make sure when you whsl something that it is legetimately going for resale tho ... It does you no good to whsl a item to someone that uses it and tells everyone what a good deal they got (from a sucker) and they never buy from you again..

[tribal forge]

!/2" HRR tripod with 3 "S" Hooks 50.00
1/2" Square Tripod with Trammel 75.00
1/2" Square Campfire set 175.00
3/8" fore poker 18.00
6"x1/4" s hook 1.75 .75 for each in che in length added

Selden

[Leland]

I'd like to remind everyone that you are not selling the steak. You are sellling the Sizzle.

I dislike Donald Trump and much that he stands for but one thing you learn from his television program is that presentation is everything in retail marketing.

Reading your post reminded me to light a candle to my patron saint -- Adam Smith!

My son enjoys hearing about the citizens of the early US, who turned their noses up at the painted tinware that was -- thanks to the fits and starts of progress that would later pick up steam and become the Industrial Revolution -- becoming both plentiful and cheap in America. Seems no one wanted painted tin, no matter how useful and inexpensive it might have been.

Until an enterprising Yankee merchant ignited the market's imagination with a new type of metal implements, in the French fashion no less, known as "t