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I Forge Iron

Knife project pt 3 chat april 17 2009


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[garey] highly finished/polished knife verses a working low finish knife. time wise and dollar wise. around here folks dont buy a expensive knife
[steve sells] HIgh polish dont take that much more effoct when compared to making the blade inthe first place. its a matter opf what the clients wants I would charge a little more but not a lot more oly because it IS more work
[garey] most knife buyers are deer hunters around here and wont pay the extra $$ for a fancy blade. they want a good solid working knife for around $150.00
[steve sells] ok then focus on that the NEED a solid blade that holds up in the field with LITTLE work on the owner part correct?
[garey] sell more semi finished knives with a 220 grit finish than anything else
[steve sells] a satin finish hides any scratched, grind to 200 the buff, will removes valeys fro rust formation whil leaving the satin for hiding marks from brush and bone cutting.
[rock-n-time] Geeeeeee i was thinking i needed to work on my typeing Steve you are good
[steve sells] typo King, 28 years running ya think you want my title ? I have spell check in the forums Cant get it in here tho :(
[rock-n-time] NO WAY!!!!!
[steve sells] OK guys the Project knife .. a few questions I hammered out the O-1 this week and gave it a rough grind to remove mill scale. the bevels are partial, they need marked off, and ground to final.. PLUS the blade itself needs some shape. I forges to the dimensions we all agreed on, but its looks too blocky I want to add some shape to it. I have a photo to show to any one that what to see it, I wont post this in the forum till the blade is finished, because some will look and thing ICK and forget the blades after that... I think it wants to be a bowie, but tels talk the shape of this m so I can get tham done and finish grinding the blade to final.
[jeremy k] what shapes could be done with it?
[steve sells] WHO want a look, rich, and Jeremy have seen it. I would like top remove a little on the spine to give a bit of a curvature to it there
[therepairman1557] kinda had a indian trade knife look to it
[garey] kind of looks like a old green river buffalo butcher knife Steve.
[steve sells] only hammered and removed scale for photo, I will post a full liost pof P{Eople in this chat that helped, as well adn people working onit in the shop. when its finished
[N8 Knives] i think i make good sheaths, i i only know how to make molded sheaths and would need the knife
[steve sells] this photo is only the first forging, scale removed for the photo
[lobodag] what style of the handle play a part in the blade has that been picked out?
[steve sells] nate since Rich will be making the handle, I can make a copy of blade with guard to Give yiou, for a pattern :) have not covered that yet, after we final the blade shape, the handle is next !
[lobodag] or taper the handle end so the tip and first radius is larger
[steve sells]pm: Handle has not been covered, we need to do that tonight also
[lobodag] handle end
[N8 Knives] whats it made of
[steve sells] its O-1 , presently 1 5/8 at the belly, 1 1/2 at the guard. 8 inch if cutting edge plus a little choil its 3/16 at guard, for the chopping portion, 1 little over 1/8 for most the blade, less than 1/8 the last 2 inches for skinning and filleting so a heavy hunting knife
[N8 Knives] is it going to be a full tang or hidden or through
[steve sells] I wanted open and visible full tang
[Rich Hale] Full
[steve sells] strong solid and no change of pulling the tang out :)
[lobodag] little fret work on the spine?
[Rich Hale] No file work
[steve sells] I dont mind but for the food side of a hunter its easier to keep clean with out them
[rock-n-time] Having not made a Knife Yet I would think. and this is just me talking. but is this not what the art of knife smithing a bout letting the steel talk to us?
[steve sells] Rich I want to start wiht your opinion about handle, as it was not shaped yet. coffin? square? a little taper like your standard collection on your web site looks nice
[Rich Hale] Let me explain that...It is a real tough thing to fit scales to someone else work we all do things differently. I have some exhibition grade ironwood tat i will fit and donate. File work will make this a entirely differnt animal that what I agreed to. And I never let a knife tell me what it wants to be I decide and make it to the best of my ability
[rock-n-time] Bummer
[Rich Hale] if ya all want file work on the blade that is up to Steve..
[steve sells] I have just hammered away for make a show piece, but Client ( in this case the knife chat members) call all the shots I guide them for the use they plan
[lobodag] gee take 5 it was just a suggestion
[steve sells] simple is best for this project. Its not going to help IFOI raise any extra by adding 5 to 20 hours of File work
[steve sells] the project was a GOOD solid working blade lets do arty stuff later
[rock-n-time] Ok I'm on page now
[lobodag] I dull not fun ah?
[steve sells] starting with rich as the handle maker in this case.. I will pass to him for a bit

Edited by mod07
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[steve sells] the tang WILL be dead flat on both sides Rich, when you get it
[lobodag] why do you think a knife should be plain to be a working knife?
[jeremy k] lobo - its' we doing all the work and poviding labor and costs incuded by each individual part of it
[lobodag] im sorry I thought steve was asking for idea's and suggestions
[jeremy k] yes he is
[lobodag] I will leave you to your knife
[steve sells] maybe engraving and file work for another maker volunteering HIS time for those things.
[N8 Knives] so its a full tand 8" hunter, what king of guard
[steve sells] I thought we decided the guard same as the clip[ rish showed us in the first chat on this blade ? a simple silver (white brass) with a little curve in it, not enough to get in the way, but enough to keep fingers for dropping off in use so spine and sides will blend into the handle the cutting edge side an arch of metal to keep finger clean of blade
[jeremy k] sounds like that will work
[therepairman1557] maybe a iron guard ?
[steve sells] Nickel silver is nice too and I have some
[Rich Hale] No iron guard.....I have to match the outside of the scales to the guard and that makes a requirement for nickel..brass or stainless. so it looks right when i am done...if other want to do the handle let them
[steve sells]and I hate fitting the SS guards, tears up my files. so Rich you want the guard a little over sized to you have room to adjust it ?
[N8 Knives] so if the blade is decided, the guard is decided ahd the hanlde, whats left
[steve sells] What is the handle shape ? you want a flat straight tang ? maybe a little angle for the termination end
[Rich Hale] I taper flat from guard to back end of tang
[N8 Knives]
[steve sells]
[steve sells] white with blue/grey markings... I like that shape of that handle
[N8 Knives] http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/2-vandeventer_coffin.gif
[therepairman1557] 10:50 pm: i like the coffin style
[steve sells] there is your photo Nice clean lines to that tang what you guys thing of Rich handle ?
[steve sells] He will be using wood not this material
[N8 Knives] rich's handle is nice but does it fit the type of knife
[steve sells] Garey you said you saw blades like this one from 1800 got a link of how they did handles ?
[Rich Hale] Repairman do you know how a coffin handle is put together?
[rock-n-time] No Rich I for one would like to Know how. I think it's a good kooker my self.
[steve sells] pin and glue scales to sides of tang... millions of pins
[therepairman1557] I know the knives garey is talking about they are usually very crude
[steve sells] Loveless made a clean simple style
[therepairman1557] yes rich as steve says usually blocky with just glue and rivets holding it steve
[N8 Knives] so have we decided on the handle shape
[Rich Hale] They are a goodlooking handle and if thegroup wants one like that then maybe it can be done I cannot donate that kind of work during a busy time in may shop....
[N8 Knives] then what do you suggest Rich
[Rich Hale] It is not my call
[steve sells] I would like to allow Rich to do the 3-D shaping how ever he feels is correct, I am asking for profile ideas for handle from the chat room... one step at a time
[steve sells] finger holes and arc's are a pain, so lets please pass on those
[N8 Knives] if you are donating the work we need some perameters of what you are willing to do so we can decide
[steve sells] good point thank you nate
[jeremy k] is the handle going to be straight or curved?
[N8 Knives] i think a straight handle will fit this type of blade best
[Rich Hale] This is what I offered..Before I make a total commitment I have to know what the guard will be an look like. The pun holes must either be in place or the tang annealed.. that tang must be flat on each side and i would prefer it to be tapered front to bacl.......
[steve sells] I think since the blade is fairly straight, the tang should follow
[garey] plain wood straight handle on most green river knives. simple easy made working knife and cheap for the frontiersman.
[therepairman1557] I think just a basic straight handle is a good idea
[steve sells] Rich wood aint plain LOL
[Rich Hale] No it is not....It is as fancy as any I have used
[steve sells] ok Rich , as it is the tang is still 1.5 wide, and 3/16 thick I have not done anything with that yet, its ground mill bar
[Rich Hale] And as Garey points out that is not keeping with the style of knife ya all chose
[steve sells] our simple frontier knife is getting a high end make over ;)
[Rich Hale] Garey makes nice knives any thoughts on handle shape?
[jeremy k] Rich - when you taper the tang - do you mill it so it's an even taper on both sides?
[Rich Hale] I do it free hand on a flat platen I scribee lines to work to on the end
[garey] should be 5" + long so a big handed feller can hang on to it
[Rich Hale]That is a good size GArey
[steve sells] that will look good very clean lines.
[garey] Redd has a big hand so i add 3/4" to his handles. :)
[Rich Hale] That is a really nice knife but I think we decided on a guard for all around use...Some one send me that knife so I can give it a lengthy trial
[N8 Knives] i dont usually do full tang knives i like the scale type with stag, so i dont have many ideas on how to shape the handle
[garey] colonial period style blade?
[steve sells]straight forward like that works with the profile as is on the blade too
[N8 Knives] thats pic is the style the Belcher wants me to make him
[Rich Hale] That kind of gets away from what you all talked about for a knife design I would use thqt in the kitchen
[steve sells] true.. but the group is here, and its late LOL, but the handle flair ok with everyone ?
[N8 Knives] that kind of handle will work with the style guard you were talking about
[garey] to many cooks spoil the stew. :)
[steve sells] but that part of this chat we have covered a lot of details that are NOT in the blade, like saw teeth, but they were covered, and the decision was agreed on to NOT do saw teeth
[jeremy k]what kind of guard was decided before?
[Rich Hale] For me a handle on a knife with a gurand shoudl follow the spine and cutting edgel ines all the way to the end
[steve sells] top and sides are same plain as the handle, like a lot of blades are the "guard" of the blade is curving bacl a little toward the hand to prevent getting cut in use so a tear drop with a little curve to it
is an easy way to describe it in shape
[jeremy k] just on the bottom - top flush full length
[garey] straight teardrop oval guard plain and simple utility shape
[steve sells] slot the top of it to slide into tang, and pins/braize to hold
[jeremy k] ok I understand that
[Rich Hale] I expect that last knife in the pic is not a full tang..rather a stub tang that is in letted partially in the handle...What do you think?
[steve sells] so top of guard is the top of the tang
[garey] the 3 pins were up towards the blade
[N8 Knives] yeah that knife has a partial tang, i was just offering the shape
[Rich Hale] Who made that it is really nice?
[steve sells] RICH how you want tang tapered? its 3/16 x 1 1/2 now want it tapered to 1/8 at end ? or thicker
[Rich Hale] If the tang is the full width of the blade taper it from front to back and it has to be flat...
[N8 Knives] i dont know who made it i just found it online and saved it for future idea
[steve sells] I was asking about thickness tapering
[garey] FLAT. important.
[Rich Hale] I just did a hunter from 1/4" and about a five inch handle the tang is a bit over .060 at the rear

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