jlpservicesinc Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 I got my butt chewed for this same argument.. Wow, if you need to melt the borax everytime you have to use it.. I just let it cool in the pan, bang the back. The flakes come off, and I have a special crusher i use to crush it all back up.. Works mint.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 Uh huh. I picked up a $5.00 hobby rock tumbler at a yard sale, melted the borax and boric acid in a silicone cake pan so it breaks into manageable size pieces easy when it cools. Toss it in the tumbler with a handful of ball bearings and forget it for a while, I gave the tumbler to Tristan, AKA Teenylittlemetalguy to do a proper job of milling his Alaska Flux. The keep some melted and handy was an old experiment that worked surprisingly well and is budget friendly. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papaw forge Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 I've seen a lot of great info on here about forge welding I myself haven't had the pleasure of doing it yet so I'm reading this to learn as much as I can . my questions are how do you know you are up to welding temperature to start using borax ? Would it be about the same temperature you use to quinch ? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 Depending on the flux it can be applied as low as dark cherry red. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 I apply mine as soon as the steel starts showing color and reapply when it gets hotter just to make sure I have good coverage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papaw forge Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 So you can't like over do it with borax I mean that I know you dont want to mound it up just kind of sprinkle it on as u go as soon as it starts glowing ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 when it will melt. This is why some folks cut borax with other things like boric acid to get it to melt at a lower temp and so start excluding O2 sooner. As to amounts: some folks like a sea of it and you can get borax stalactites depending from the bottom of your firepot grate, others like a very little. What works best for you is the proper amount; though as one swordmaker has been quoted (not JPH), "borax is cheap don't be afraid to use enough!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 23 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: some folks like a sea of it and you can get borax stalactites I've done that a couple times and it makes a mess that causes bad clinker. That or destroys gas forge floors made of less than ideal materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnglishDave Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 On 8/13/2017 at 3:57 PM, Papaw forge said: I've seen a lot of great info on here about forge welding I myself haven't had the pleasure of doing it yet so I'm reading this to learn as much as I can . my questions are how do you know you are up to welding temperature to start using borax ? Would it be about the same temperature you use to quinch ? Thanks You will be able to see very easily if it is hot enough, when you remove the billet from the fire and sprinkle some borax onto it if it is hot enough it will fluff up (unless you have prepared an anhydrous batch) and then melt and run into all the gaps between the individual pieces of steel. I did my first simple 3 layer san mai this morning and it was very obvious to see the flux melt and run into the bundle. I did make sure to place a sacrificial piece of firebrick in the bottom so the flux did not dissolve my kaowool. The flux goes black and looks hideous when it has cooled but once ground off I had a really nice seamless weld underneath. Way to go cheap borax flux! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimTheToolman Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 On 12/13/2007 at 12:48 PM, ThomasPowers said: James Hrisoulas once posted this flux recipe: "Flux mix is as follows: 5 parts anhydrous borax 2 parts powdered boric acid 1 part powdered iron oxide (the real STUFF NOT the concrete dyes) 1/2 part Fluorspar (very toxic) 1/4 part sal ammoniac This stuff sticks most anything together" attachment removed to prevent viruses My question is how these parts are measured ? Is it by weight or is it by volume or what ? Thank you. fluxrecipes.doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted April 20, 2019 Share Posted April 20, 2019 Its not critical. So either/any way works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campbell Blacksmith Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 I worked as a Journeyman lndustrial Blacksmith at ASARCO inc. Omaha plant A non ferrious metal refinery for abt. 14 Years, Where forge welding was done every day in a coal forge. Most of the forge welding was done in the morning while the coal fire was nice and clean. Some forge welding was small stuff usually 1/2 " round stock . Then later around mid day the fire would be large enough to weld heavier stuff ..1-3/4 " .. 2 1/2" usually round or square stock . Supplying the plant with necessary tools and implement . The "Forge welding compound" was made by or called EZ Weld ( if I am remembering correctly.) It's been allmost 40 years ago. It came in a paper bag inside a cardboard, flip top box 5 lbs. It had borax mixed with what looked like a silica & play sand mix & cast Iron filings. Just guessing it look like 75% with 20% and 5% respectively. After upsetting and faggoting the two pieces to be welded they were placed in the fire and heated to a good forgeing temp , bright cherry red. Applied Compound with a long handle spoon tool while in the fire continuing to heat evenly . The borax would boil cleaning the metal then cast iron would melt in as the sand turned to a glass like coating sealing or sheilding the oxygen off the weld area.. When the metal pieces started to liquify or flow simultaneously they were quickly taken from the fire, set in place on the anvil & immediately struck hard . The first two or three correctly placed blows would complete the weld . The welding Compound was as I described . Borax ,Cast Iron filings & sand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 16 hours ago, Campbell Blacksmith said: I worked as a Journeyman lndustrial Blacksmith at ASARCO inc. Omaha plant Welcome to IFI! If you haven't yet, please READ THIS FIRST!!! Sounds like you've got some good experience to share with us here. Looking forward to seeing more of your contributions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Welcome aboard Campbell, glad to have you. If you put your general location in the header we won't have to pester you about it and you never know when a member lives within visiting distance. Can't get an invite to a BBQ hammer in if folk don't know you're there you know. I don't think there are many on the forum that smith at near the scale you do, a 3/8" x 1.5" x 5" billet is sorta large to me. Like puns? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 The difference between hydrous and anhydrous borax is that anhydrous Borax stays where you put it and hydrous borax flows away easier. You want it to carry scale and such with it but if it runs off before you reach the temp where scale forms it isn't as effective. Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 Exactly. Hydrous borax bubbles as the water in it turns to steam, and that steam can push the flux right off your workpiece if you're not careful. Anhydrous melts and wets the surface, allowing it to dissolve the scale (to be pushed out when you set the weld) and protect the surface from further oxidation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 Okay, I went back to the thread and started looking. I must have skimmed over the part about the moisture in Borax sloughing off without really doing a good job of fluxing the metal. So just ordered 6 pounds of Anhydrous Borax. I'll pick up some Boric Acid in town today to put in it. Now all I need to do is to find a local source of 100% Iron Oxide, Flourspar and Ammoniac and I'll be able to make some of JPH's Steel Glue. (off to my search engine!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 Just keep in mind flux is not glue, it will not stick the steel together only help to keep it clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 The MOST important thing when forge welding is having clean surfaces to weld together. If the pieces you intend to weld are clean enough and you have a reducing atmosphere you can weld without flux or so I'm told. I haven't done any forge welding without flux but I know it's possible. Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 do not use the fluorspar if you dont have too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 Why, Steve? Just got home with my 99% Boric Acid Roach Killer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 last I checked fluorine gas is toxic, look it up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 Wow, you're correct! Why, then, would the great and respected JPH recommend it as part of his Steel Glue Flux recipe????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 because its needed for dealing with the chrome oxides of stainless steel, on the net people dont pay attention to the details and there are risks, read the MSDS of things dont just dive in and play chemist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 C. T. C., Who is "the great and respected JPH", you alluded to? SLAG p. s. Use a good fan to blow the spent fluorine outside. It should be a small amount that comes off, so you not pollute the whole neighborhood. (respirator would be useful but it would probably prove too cumbersome to use for forge welding. p .p. s., iirc. Techicus Joe has a video teaching forge welding without flux. p. p. p. s. Steve, fluorine gas is highly toxic. It is a close chemical cousin to chlorine the notorious poison gas used in World War One. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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