Dave Budd Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 in the UK the borax that was once found in the supermarkets has been almost totally replaced by 'borax substitute'. I've not heard whether that stuff works or not, but being that I don't live anywhere near a place that sells it, I've not tried. Instead I just buy bags of pure borzx from ceramic supply companies. Potters use it for glazing, so its used in large quantities and is very cheap and very clean :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Ahem.... I already have this... Is not BORAXO and 20 Mule Team Borax not basically the same stuff? boraxo is borax And SOAP, that soap addition is going to cause trouble. NEVER USE WIKIPEDIA AS A PRIMARY SOURCE, anyone can and do post there, some are clueless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Back in the days when the metal used was real wrought iron it was pretty much self fluxing due to the silicates in it. If they wanted more clean quartz sand or even ground glass was used---try removing that from a joint later! As WI tolerates high heat well it was possible to weld it above the melting temp of scale and so not need much. Every thing from dirt daubers nests to wood ashes (as well as rice straw, etc) has been successfully used with the caveat that no flux is needed for certain welds. Note too the use of box welding in pattern welded billets where the clean steel is encased in a steel box with an O2 scavanger (often a slight bit of oil) and welded up with no further flux---often used for very difficult to weld alloys! Practical Blacksmithing has a discussion on how to weld the "new" Bessemer steel in it and with the *new* metal that doesn't tolerate the high temps as well and is not self fluxing you start to see the rise of proprietary welding compounds; most containing borax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale M. Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 boraxo is borax And SOAP, that soap addition is going to cause trouble. NEVER USE WIKIPEDIA AS A PRIMARY SOURCE, anyone can and do post there, some are clueless. Guess I should also not use GOOGLE or BING or manufacturers web site either.... Most times I have found Wikipedia to be accurate enough to at least get a handle on information I need and usually is accurate enough to set me off in a direction I can go to validate it at ANY OTHER SOURCE of information... Sorry if my reference material source does not conform to your standards.... Do you believe everything you see on Youtube? Respectful to your comment just the same... Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Mullins Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Its not a "common household" ingredient, but one prior post, I believe in the Thread Steve referenced, cited the addition of pure Iron filings to Borax to add its function. This is the same as is being done by one of the fluxes on the market currently and is reported to work well. Pure filings iron can be ordered from scientific/industrial supply sources. Anyone tried this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 I never mentioned U tube, but its not a good primary resource either. I feel we should always research anything we find on the web, and prove the validity . I did state wikipedia is not good as a primary source of information. Not only experts, but anyone with an ability to post to the net posts there, making that only second hand information I can get you a link to the definitions of these terms if you are having trouble understanding the meaning, as you seem upset when there is no need to be. Wikipedia is great for fast answers, but double checking them is mandatory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Dale, the links you posted refer to the 20 mule team home page, and the wiki page for straight borax, not boraxo. google interprets 'boraxo' as a misspelling of borax, you have to force it to search for boraxo (which you may have done, I don't know). but, you have sited two articles referring back to the same compound (straight borax) as your comparison of 20 mule team and your boraxo hand soap. the wiki page for 'boraxo' is laughably inadequate, but I googled around and I couldn't find anything anywhere else specifically stating WHAT was added to boraxo more specific than 'hand soap' either, and the MSDS for both the powdered for and liquid form don't have a full list of ingredients, only the ones deemed 'hazardous', of which there are a few. steve has a valid (though blunt) point, when I was in college we were expressly prohibited from sourcing directly from Wikipedia for exactly that reason. anybody can post whatever they want up there, and it is not guaranteed that the BS has been caught and edited out. however, like you, I use it very regularly as a springboard for getting my bearings on a new subject, for which is performs admirably (most of the time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 I have watched Richard Bent and Mark Aspery do forge welds with out flux repeatedly.... There has been talk of current steels not needing flux to form the bond. Tom Ferry stopped using flux in his knife billets a while back too... Me? I need practice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Filings seem to help "stick" welds; but are not used in pattern welding as they obscure the transitions. Flux while not mandatory, can help you to get a good weld and it's quite cheap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale M. Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 To those critical of my references to web sources of information... I have been on the web since its inception, and have logged hundreds of hours of research on various subjects.... Seems that the things I am specifically interested in have least information or least creditable information available... I chose to display these sources so people would know where my questions were based from... NOT to recommend or validate them.... I am a believer of researching things from many sources and hopefully making a intelligent or informed decision from all available information presented.... Even in this tread some of the abstract comments are valid proof on the lack of validity of information ... Some of the comments here ( in this set of message thread) have the same unsubstantiated information from vague sources that people critical of Wikipedia are expounding as truths.... So enough of the grumbling on the validity of the reference material and lets get to what people have actually used and what works for them... Dale it was wikipedia that caused the confussion between boraxo and borax, the point has been made, maybe some confusion could have been avoided by reading this pinned thread first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Dale I use twenty mule team straight from the box....I used it for years welding horseshoes and then and now use it for pattern welded billets...for knives and ornamental items. .That reflects my shop rules,.,your shop rules may differ in any manner you wish..and your sources may be from wherever you like...i havel earned long ago and get updates often that some sources are better than others...R#Ecentlly there was a data sheet from a steel comppany that makes rr spikes on here and it showed no caerbon content4 at all,,,but it did show a C02 content, I wouild not likely ever read anything from that company again as I found it unusable. Message here is build your own trust in wot folks say in here and those sources you obtain data from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 I remember what a great step forward it was to go to using a keypunch from a teletype and oiled paper tape for programs; got a number of old foagies round these parts...Were you active on rec.crafts.metalworking (before the blacksmithing one was started)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Back on topic,, I've used the commercial types and 20 mule team borax on and off for years, all with good success. For the last few years I've been using 20 mule team borax with anywhere from 10% to 30% boriac acid measured by eye. I'm sold on this combo. It works as well or better than the finest commercial "finish" types.Boriác acid is cheap and available at the pharmacy off the shelf and pure.20 muel team borax is at the same grocery store.Do a search here for boriac acid. Lots of good stuff on this and fluxes in general.anvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 I have good results from 4pts borax and 1pt boric acid. The boric acid has a lower melting temp so it coats and seals the steel preventing scaling before scaling really starts. I don't know if there's any chemical advantage but I find it a bit more aggressive than straight borax. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 I found an MSDS for Boraxo. One of the ingredients listed is "sodium soap." I don't know if that means "lye soap" or something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 im still trying to find out why metal shaving are even used? do they melt and form a layer over the area or what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric sprado Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Boraxo and Twenty Mule Team Borax are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS,are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!!!! We use Twenty Mule Team for flux!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Savage, Iron or steel particles are added to the Borax to make it less slippery. A little sticky with your slippery. Stops two pieces from moving just before and during the first hit. Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarry Dog Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Has anyone else noticed that they changed the color of the packaging for borax here in the states? I remember that it used to be a crazy green color. It is white with a couple of white in blue text boxes on it. I just got a box yesterday and I had a hard time finding it because it blended in with the rest of the detergents so well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grant 75 Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Can I use Flux from welding rods for forge welding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothBore Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Maybe, ... depending on the type of rods.But why would you want to ?20 Mule Team Borax is cheap, ... and readily available. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Those in UK do not use flux to forge weld.Flux is not glue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yves Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Maybe, ... depending on the type of rods.But why would you want to ?20 Mule Team Borax is cheap, ... and readily available. . Those in UK do not use flux to forge weld.Flux is not glue.I have been using Borax hauled out by the 20 mule team. It works. It' cheap as SmoothBore said.Once in a while, I forge chain links. I forged one without Borax yesterday. A first for me. And it is cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyfelwr Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I use 20 Mule Team Borax as well. But I have been practicing my fluxless welding.. I kind of got interested in it from watching TechnicusJoe on youtube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Those in UK do not use flux to forge weld.Flux is not glue.Not necessarily true, some do some don't, I am not even sure of the proportion…Alan Knight, the smith I worked with when I left college, rarely used flux for wrought iron welding but often used silver sand for mild steel. And at one time we played around with mixing silver sand and borax.I tend to use nothing if it is an easy weld like a chain link or a branch weld but awkward scarf welds and tee welds I will probably use flux. I have used flux for the first few welds if I have not been doing it regularly but when I get my eye in tend not to need it.Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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