Judson Yaggy

If they know, perhaps John N or James J could enlighten Philip and everyone on the tup to anvil ratio difference between a one piece versus a 2 pc. machine of the same weight? If for example a 1 pc. is 8:1 and the 2 pc. is 18:1 then I'd spend the extra week or two to set up a more complicated foundation for the heavier. If I was a hobby smith or might move the hammer in the next 10 years then perhaps a 1pc. Remember, poured concrete takes 28 days to cure to full strength. I remember reading somewhere that Chambersburg had tested anvil mass ratios and found that 20:1 was the ideal anvil to hammer ratio, but that 18:1 was imperceptibly close enough.

Progress report- Prongs of attack on the hammer project are as follows. I'm currently grinding my 1700# anvil mass flat and square with a home made rig not unlike a big surface grinder. Have a 400# base plate and a BIG hunk of I beam for a backbone. Have a 28" diameter by 320# fly wheel and big electric motor and switches off a punch press I converted to hydraulics a while ago. Have bolted a big crank onto the flywheel to run the back piston. As I write there is a piece of round stock chucked up in my lathe to be turned into the valve body. I'm thinking of making a hybrid valve, a cross between the Massey one from the patent and the Alldays one shown in one of the pics in the above link. Two air passages in one valve body, each with a check like the Massey, but with rectangular slots and a flapper type check as in the A&O. Any comments? John noted the difficulty in balancing systems on air hammers. My first inclination would be to install an adjustable, one way, pressure release valve where needed. I suspect that it would need to allow a fairly high volume out when needed, and my brief look thru the McMaster catalog didn't yield many clues to volume ratings of their release valves. Anyone have any ideas or am I in for machining another part? Thanks everyone!

For anyone interested I found this site on an A&O hammer rebuild. Thanks for the lead John. Alldays & Onions Air Hammer

Beaudrys are outstanding mechanical hammers. IIRC a #6 is around 150#, and if the condition is as stated then it's a good deal. Even if you have to store it for a few years I'd buy it, then even if you keep your Striker you can have different dies on the two hammers for different operations. Hmm... Boston isn't that far away from me, if you give it a pass let me know...

Pull the flywheel and crank and install a hydraulic cylinder. It's an easy conversion. Way more controllable and safer. I personally know a guy who lost 3 fingers to a punch press that double tapped, and if you spend any time around guys who used to run them they all have a similar story.

Ah, page 5. Yes, you are right. It does seem to be activated by an external linkage, looks like you have to pull a hand lever to engage or disengage this feature? Or does the spring disengage? If we deviate from the patent and use motion of a reciprocating part to activate it still seems to me that it would have better response if it were tup activated (if you could find a way to get it out of the work area for the reasons you stated).

Frosty- Insofar as I can follow you and the language of the patent, I think you are right. But I'm still thinking it thru. I suppose there could be a secondary mechanical system that moves the valve upon depressing the treadle from holding open to stroke and then back to hold open. Perhaps some linkage triggered by the passage of the tup. Robin- What lines on page 2 are you referring to?

Another red flag is that the whole hammer looks dry and dusty. If it'd been properly lubed there should be oil drooling out of everywhere. I'd suspect all kinds of things to be worn loose from those photos. $500 and figure on a lot of rebuild.

Thanks guys! Mad Mike, those #'s are great confirmation that I'm on the right track. John N- I'm aware of your vast experience and your words of caution have been received loud and clear. I've got several mechanical hammers to keep the paying work going out the door and this is a "for fun" project so if it takes several years of messing around to get right that's ok.

So after reading the Google patent search on Massey hammers Frosty posted in another thread and reading the pages on the Anvilfire home built self contained hammer (look in the Catalog of user built hammers) I have a few questions. As no one in my area has a self contained hammer that I can measure the cylinders on, does anyone know if there is a typical cubic inch of displacement per pound of tup weight? Or to put it another way, does anyone have a hammer that they can measure the cylinders on, something like a Nazel 1b or 2b? (or Massey or Beche or Anyang or Striker or those Russian or Turkish things?) I'm aiming for a 125# hammer. Most of the hammer drawings and pictures I've found show the compressor piston having a larger diameter than the tup piston. I assume that this is to allow a short throw from the crank to push a large volume of air, but is there another reason? Also, machining larger parts shouldn't be an issue but it'd be nice to know how to tolerance them. Should I assume that hammer cylinders and pistons should have similar clearances to those found in air compressors? Should have been an engineer like my Grampy... Nah, this is more fun!

Thanks for the quick reply! Yes, that's what I meant by mechanical connection. I see what you mean about the loss but if you assume rigid lines (pipe?) would there be a noticeable loss if you had say 2 feet of line rather than 2 inches? Why not just up-size your compressing cylinder? Ok, I'll stop asking stupid questions and read the patent in detail. I'm sure I'll be back in a day or two with more questions. Thanks again Frosty.

I was all set to start building my external source air hammer, even have a 1700# block of cast iron for the anvil mass, a big I beam and a 2" thick base plate, and you go and show us that cool patent. I'm printing and sharpening my highlighter as we speak and I'm sure my wife will roll her eyes at this one! But seriously, from just a quick look at the drawings, is there a reason for the mechanical connection of the two cylinders or did they just need all that iron because they didn't have the nifty materials we modern smiths have today like quality air hoses? Also, were you going to machine your valves yourself or is there a commercially available product that would do the same thing? Thanks!

Frosty, if you'd been paying attention over on MAF I asked Kerry that about a month ago! Those are good brake designs, it's what most everyone around here uses. Speaking of oiling lots of points IIRC the hole that looks like a lathe live center hole in the back of the main shaft on LG's is also a lube point for some part up in the cone clutch. Anyone else able to confirm that?

A lever is a lever as long as you have a fulcrum, otherwise it's just a stick.

To make a living? First assume that as a small business person you can spend only 3/4 to 1/2 of your time actually producing work for sale, the rest of the time is spent on all the other stuff small businesses have to deal with (paperwork, marketing, taxes, insurance, ordering, shipping, management, etc.) How much time have you spent gaining the knowledge to become a good blacksmith? Do you have a PHD (10,000 hours of training?) Better charge $150/hour or more. Equivalent of a Master's Degree? Perhaps $100/hr. Equivalent of a Bachelors? Maybe $65/hr.? Dropped out of High-school? $10/hr? I suspect that if you are not good at the first part (small business) then you will struggle to make a living no matter your skill level. If you are smithing for fun as a hobby then all monetary bets are off. A programming job or a mid-manager gig will cover a lot of free time messing around in the forge. From a free market perspective I hope you charge an awful lot so my customers don't feel shocked by my prices.

Guys- I think that the #1 (according to Pounding Out The Profits) is a 65# hammer. No big deal, it hits like a 75 #'er. I too have an oddball motor mount (with a gear box) and will take photos tomorrow if I remember.

I use bar & chain oil on my mechanical hammers. It's designed to cling and it seems to stay on the parts longer than regular motor oil, especially the ram guides. Around here they sell summer and winter weight, I switch seasonally. I've seen a lot of guys add those flip-top thread in oil cups to their hammers, esp. at the pitman/crank plate connection.

Get a hold of Clifton Ralph's videos on power hammer forging. He shows more tools, tool holders, and other nifty gadgets and tricks than you can shake a stick at. He uses flat dies and places shaped tools on top of them as needed.

I run mine on a 1.5hp motor but it's got a newly machined shaft and fresh babbit in the bearing cups and I reduced the driving pulley diam. slightly to run the hammer slower for using top tools.

I have a #1. Has a fairly snappy blow, add a brake for a 1 hit wonder. Has some trouble (as with all mechanical hammers) with too-thick material/tooling requiring frequent pitman adjustment. Watch out for over tightening of the lower dovetail wedge as there is no sow block and I have seen pictures of several #1's with broken or missing front lower female dovetails. The dovetail is integral to the cast frame so hard to fix.

I've moved lots of heavy stuff lots of ways. You have 3 basic methods to choose from, starting with the most expensive but safest and going down to least expensive but most dangerous. 1. Hydraulic power. Hire a crane, tow truck, forklift, tractor with a loader, back-hoe, etc. Expensive but FAST and fairly safe if the operator knows his job. Stay out from under the load at all times. 2. Modern secondary methods. Com-a-long hoists, electric winches, engine lifts, etc. along with tripod or scaffolding or attached to a building as a lift point. More chance of old or damaged or overloaded equipment or insufficient load capacity of load bearing points. 3. Egyptian slave method. Lots of strong backs with levers, pipe rollers, and ramps. Unless well orchestrated a good chance of strained backs and crushed toes or worse. Popular due to low cost. Truth be told I moved my 2000# (gross) power hammer into my shop by myself with this method. Hope this helps.

Two burners also gives you the opportunity to put a valve on each one and run them independently for shorter or localized heat which is sometimes useful.

I know Jim quite well. The arms on his 125# Beaudry broke while in use, he was darn lucky not to get hurt. He had new springs/arms forged by Steve Parker, an industrial smith from Illinois. Steve does a lot of demos at hammerins, you can probably find his contact info somewhere. Jim and Ralph Sproul then made a die to press all the bends and offsets on Ralph's big press. They were very careful to keep the number of heats to a minimum and to work in the proper temp. range for the steel they were using (I forget what steel exactly) as this is a high stress part and failure can be spectacular. I've heard of a few other people having Beaudrys break, Lee Sauder (if that's how you spell it) springs to mind. Don't know how he fixed his. Hope this helps.

I have a Chili Forge Cayenne. Cost about $800 with shipping. It beats the pants off my old NC Forge Whisper Daddy. Efficient, hot, easy. Ceramic lining over the Kayowool except in the roof so less worry about carcinogenic dust. Each burner (has 2) has it's own valve so they can be run independently. Sorry to sound like an add, but I'd buy another in a heartbeat. They do make smaller stuff for less $.

The dies look like those on one of the leather harness hammering machines shown in Pounding Out The Profits.