Woody

I don't come around here real often so I missed a bunch of requests for information on steel, not sure if is sent it to those who wanted it or not. if you will send me a message on this site with your email address I will be glad to send you the information. It is about 20 pages in MS Word format that I have gleaned from various soruces including ABANA publications, Machinery's Handbook, various websites and who knows where else.

Nice knife. what everybody said about a knife in a gun fight. If you are armed with a handgun and have to resort to your knife, either you didn't bring enough ammo or you need to work on your accuracy.

I just love those master bladesmiths, Ed Fowler was at the ABANA Conference here, he is still advocating edge packing although he didn't call it that, just that you never hammer on the spine of the blade when forging only on the edge to break up the the grain structure and make it smaller and a new one on me he called "flash annealing" where you hold the hot iron in a darkened area until it goes back to black and then flashes, do this twice and then edge quench. I think it is sort of like the thermal cycling Steve mentioned, this is after the blade has been differientally quenched 3 times. He also advocated forging 52100 at a temperature so low it scared me. He forges it just above a black heat to avoid growing the grain. To my way of thinking that is dancing around in stress crack city but it seems to work for him. He never did demo forging a blade, just his method of heat treating blades. His quench tank was an electric frying pan with about a half pint of oil which he said must be maintained at 160 degrees F. the blade was triple quenched, then "flash annealed" twice and quenched again. Unfortunately I missed Resroat's demos because of conflicts with doctors appoinments (I should have skipped the doctor's appointments, the cortisone injections did nothing) and helping in the Art Gallery.. Dr West from the School of Mines did an excellent 2 hour lecture on myth busting some of "ideas" in blacksmithing and knife making. He thoroughly explained the process of heat treating and grain growth. I wish I could remember it all, fortunately I have access to him on a regular basis. His lecture was one of the best things at the conference.

Like I said, "here we go again" seems we went through this about last December or so.. I am well aware of "more advanced techniques" however trying to use the same name to identify two completely different processes only creates confussion. If you quench the steel you end up with a comletely different grain structure than if you air cool to ambient temperature. Perhaps what you are alluding to is defined below: Metallurgy of Steel for Bladesmiths & Others who Heat Treat and Forge Steel John D. Verhoeven Emeritus Professor Iowa State University New Grains formed by Phase Transformation For simplicity consider first a pearlitic steel. At room temperature there will be some average pearlite grain size. When this steel is heated above its Ac1 temperature austenite grains will begin to form. The new austenite grains start to form on the old pearlite grain boundaries as shown schematically in Fig. 8.4. After a short time all the old pearlite grains are replaced with a completely new set of austenite grains. The new austenite grains have their smallest size immediately after the pearlite is consumed, before significant grain growth occurs as the temperature rises and time proceeds. Following are two factors that enhance the formation of the smallest possible initial austenite grain size. (1) Faster heating rates cause the austenite grains to nucleate closer together and enhance small grain size. (2) Smaller original pearlite grains produce smaller austenite grains. When the austenite is cooled back down below the Ar1 temperature a whole new set of pearlite grains is formed and the same two factors: rate of transformation and size of the prior grains, control the size of the new grains. Hence, on simply heating and cooling through the transformation temperature three different sets of grains are involved. When dealing with hypoeutectoid steels the same ideas apply only now one must heat above the Ac3 temperature before 100 % austenite is formed. If one wants to reduce the grain size of a ferrite/pearlite steel, a simple technique is to heat into the austenite region holding the maximum temperature as low as possible and the time as short as possible and then rapidly cooling back to room temperature as fast as possible without forming bainite, (see my note below) assuming it is not desired. Since smaller initial grain size promotes smaller final grain size, repeating this cycles several times will enhance fine grain size. When heat treating to form martensite, toughness is also enhanced by fine grained austenite because it results in a finer lath or plate size in the martensite. Again the same ideas apply. Rapid heating and repeated cycling produce smaller martensite microstructures. Grange [8.3] has presented a study showing the beneficial effect of small austenite grain size on the mechanical properties of 8640 steel. He achieved grain sizes in the ultrafine range of ASTM No. 13 to 15 by a 4 cycle process where the steel was austenitized in molten lead for around 10 s, cooled to room temperature, cold worked and then cycled again. A series of similar experiments was performed here on 3 steels to examine the effectiveness of thermal cycling alone, no cold working was employed. The steels were heated by immersion in a salt pot. Initially the steels were austenitized for 15 min. at 1650 oF and oil quenched in rapidly stirred oil. Then the steels were given 3 thermal cycles consisting of a 4 minute austenitization in 1450 oF salt and a quench in rapidly stirred oil. The grain sizes were measured with the same technique described by Grange [8.3] and the ASTM numbers before and after the 3 cycle treatment are given in Table 8.2. It is seen that ultrafine grain sizes were obtained. Figure 8.5 presents photomicrographs of the martensite structures found in the 1086 steel before and after the cycling. The composition of this steel is in the range where we expect the martensite to be a mixture of lath and plate morphologies, and in the uncycled coarser grained sample Fig. 8.5 (A), one can see dark plates in a matrix of the lath structure. However, in the finer grained austenite produced by thermal cycling, Fig. 7(, the martensite structure is clearly finer and the plates are not easily identified. Table 8.2 ASTM grain size no. of austenite before and after the 3 cycle treatment done here. Steel type Grain Size Before Grain Size After 1045 9 14 1086 11 15 5150 8.5 14 Note: I have looked it up and to cool without forming bainite requires cooling to less than 200 C in less than 10 seconds.

Here we go again, when did quenching become part of the normalizing process? I just picked this up off a google search. Normalizing: Carbon steel is heated to approximately 55 °C above Ac3 or Acm for 1 hour; this assures the steel completely transforms to austenite. The steel is then air-cooled, which is a cooling rate of approximately 38 °C (100.4 °F) per minute. This results in a fine pearlitic structure, and a more-uniform structure. Normalized steel has a higher strength than annealed steel; it has a relatively high strength and ductility.[13] Quenching: Carbon steel with at least 0.4 wt% C is heated to normalizing temperatures and then rapidly cooled (quenched) in water, brine, or oil to the critical temperature. The critical temperature is dependent on the carbon content, but as a general rule is lower as the carbon content increases. This results in a martensitic structure; a form of steel that possesses a super-saturated carbon content in a deformed body-centered cubic (BCC) crystalline structure, properly termed body-centered tetragonal (BCT), with much internal stress. Thus quenched steel is extremely hard but brittle, usually too brittle for practical purposes. These internal stresses cause stress cracks on the surface. Quenched steel is approximately three to four (with more carbon) fold harder than normalized steel.[ Normalizing 1 Heat the furnace or kiln to 1,500 degrees Fahrenheit and put on your protective eyewear and clothing. (See Reference 2) 2 Calculate the amount of time you will need to leave the steel in the furnace. You can do this by allowing an hour for every cubic inch of steel you are normalizing. (See reference 2) 3 Place the steel in the furnace and leave it for the calculated time. 4 Remove the steel from the furnace once the time is up using the heat-resistant tongs and leave it to cool in the open air. Normalizing is the process of raising the temperature to over 60 º C (108 ºF), above line A3 or line ACM fully into the Austenite range. It is held at this temperature to fully convert the structure into Austenite, and then removed form the furnace and cooled at room temperature under natural convection. This results in a grain structure of fine Pearlite with excess of Ferrite or Cementite. The resulting material is soft; the degree of softness depends on the actual ambient conditions of cooling. This process is considerably cheaper than full annealing since there is not the added cost of controlled furnace cooling. The main difference between full annealing and normalizing is that fully annealed parts are uniform in softness (and machinablilty) throughout the entire part; since the entire part is exposed to the controlled furnace cooling. In the case of the normalized part, depending on the part geometry, the cooling is non-uniform resulting in non-uniform material properties across the part. This may not be desirable if further machining is desired, since it makes the machining job somewhat unpredictable. In such a case it is better to do full annealing

" and when (in the right proportions) caustic and zinc produce cyanide gas," In NFPA 491M Manual of Hazardous Chemical Reactions there is no reaction listed for either Sodium Hydroxide (Caustic Soda) or Potasium Hydroxide (Lye) and Zinc. I would be interested in how you arrived at that conclusion since neither zinc (Zn), Caustic Soda (NaOH) or Lye (KOH) contain cyanide. Zinc when in contact with either of these chemicals can evolve Hydrogen Gas which is flammable and explosive.

I would take a piece of the rebar and heat it to non magnetic, and quench in oil. Then hit it with a file, if the file skates over the metal without cutting it, you have some pretty high carbon steel and you can heat treat your knife accordingly. If the file will cut it, reheat the steel and quench in water, then try the file test. If that hardens the metal to your liking, heat treat your knife using a water quench. My guess would be that there isn't enough carbon in the rebar to be suitably hardened for knifemaking purposes. A while back I saw some ASTM minimum requirements for carbon content etc for various grades of rebar but as I recall they were minimum requirements and the maximum amount of carbon in rebar can vary considerably. I had some old stuff laying around that I made into a couple of chisels about 12 years ago and with a water quench the stuff is harder than chinese arithmatic.

Ironsmith, if you had ever done a demonstraton you would know the following Truths: 1. Everybody's grandpa was a blacksmith 2. Blacksmiths shoe horses :D

I tell people you can have good or you can have fast but you can't have good and fast. Remember that the only one you need to please is you.

If any of you that are attending the ABANA Conference next week would like to stop by and throw a brick at me or something, send me a message and I will give you my cell number so we can get together.

No music, when I am messing with hot metal and machinery I want as little distraction as possible. I wear hearing aids now because I didn't wear ear plugs when I was young, 10 foot tall and bullet proof.

Thomas I have just the anvil to sweeten the deal, its a 75 lb cast iron swayback beauty with just enough casting pits in the face to give it character. It says Mexico on the side but I think the Chinese just wanted to blame the piece of junk on someone else. When the mexicans get wind of it I expect the first shots in the Taco/Chopsticks war to be fired shortly afterwards. Right now it is on loan to an aspiring young blacksmith. I figure anything he does to it will be an improvement and obviously increase its value by at least a shiny new nickel.

Let me see if I have this correct. This guy wants to sell 17 anvils for approximately $9000 sight unseen. If anybody jumps at that offer then perhaps they would also be interested in a little lake front property I have to offer. One side faces the water, the top; there is an abundance of wildlife, water moccasins, alligators, snapping turtles and muskrats; most of the property is densely foliated moss, water lilies and algae; the property is easily accessible, by swamp buggy, air boat and parachute; the property is very secluded, nearest neighbor is 12 feet up and 25 miles west. Property boundaries are estimates only, the gators ate the surveyor. This is a cash only deal and for an additional $10K I will send you instructions on how to help me get $25 million out of Nigeria and will share 40% of the money with you. :ph34r:

It seems that we have this discussion about every year or so. I would like to make a few points, first Repetition don't make it right or Safe. Just because you have done something incredibly stupid several times and got away with it don't mean it won't blow up and kill you the next time. Second exhaust fumes contain unburned combustable components like Carbon Monoxide introducing an atmosphere that is too rich to burn into a tank does not make it safe to use spark producing or flame producing tools to cut it. All that needs to happen for an explosion is for more air to be introduced into the container. A cutoff wheel will do this because the wheel acts as a fan pulling air in as it cuts. Third as stated before, oxy/acetylene torches will introduce unburned gasses into the container that can cause an explosion. Forth, wash the container thouroughly by filling it with warm soapy water. Rinse the container by filling it with clean water until there are no more bubbles, at least twice. Remember that dish washing and other detergents contain alcohol. Dawn Dish Washing Liquid Concentrate when shipped by tank truck carries a Flammable Placard. Then cut the container with a sabre saw or better yet, sell the Propane tank and buy a Bell.,

If you already have a 1" round hole, can you drill it a bit bigger? If you can then you can drop the appropriate sized 3/4 inch drive socket into the hole and weld it in place, then you then have a square 3/4 in hardy hole. If you have access to even larger drill bits, you can use a 1" drive socket to get a 1" hardy hole.

I have a Canady Otto Blower complete except for the fire bowl, I constructed a fire bowl out of a brake drum and one end of a pressure tank for a water well. I don't even want to think of how I welded the cast iron brake drum to the steel water tank with my little mig welder. Anyway, after I got the blower I took it apart to clean it and the gasket that seals both halves of the housing was in bad shape. I took a leather boot lace, oiled it up and put it in. I cut the ends in a bevel so they overlapped. That old shoe lace has been in there for 12 years and it still dont leak.

The design looks good to me, go get a hunk of carbon steel and start hammering away. You should have your knife/sword finished in a week or so, please post pictures when you are done.

Remember that the cheapest thing you can buy is usually the most expensive thing that you will own. I would pass on that anvil, if that much of the face broke off my guess is the rest of the face isn't all that securely attached. If you spend a few hundred repairing the front half of the anvil you will be heart and bank account broke if the back half breaks off once the repairs are complete. Save your money and look for an anvil that is in better shape.

I found this on the internet while doing a google search on normalizing, I thought it was quite interesting and might clear up some questions beginners have. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_BH6HqpPtk

You can get boric acid at any drug store.

I bet birds and trouts are just jumping into your basket hoping to get cut by such a beautiful blade :D Awesome work as always Rich.

I'll be there, I have to drive clear across town. Can't figure out if I want to take the car, the pickup, or my street legal ATV. Decissions, Decissions, Decissions!!!! Ya'll message me and we will figure out how to get together.

I forged my first blades on a piece of rail that weighed about 15 lbs that i welded a half inch thick 4 inch wide piece of flat bar to the top and bottom. It worked until I bought a 75 lb cast iron ASO made in Mexico that was also a piece of junk but worked until I could find something better. To make a knife or anything all you need is something to heat the steel, something to hold the steel while you hit it, something to beat the steel with and something to beat it on. You also need a strong desire and a little bit of talent. For $20 you can't go wrong. After you find a better anvil you can find a multitude of uses for this thing in your shop. Use it as a cutting block for one. In your career you will encounter many nay sayers. some of them are the "I can't forge unless I have Pocohantus #3 coal, I can't forge unless I have a London Pattern anvil, I can't forge unless I have a Wisper Baby Forge." Quite a while back Bill Epps said "I knew old Ike Cant, the dumb son of a gun died in the poor house." You will be amazed at what you can make with rudementery tools and a little ambition it is much more than you will ever turn out with the most well equipped shop and no get up and go. Welcome to the world of blacksmithing. Enjoy the ride

Beautiful knife, Rich.

Let me see, you put an indeterminent amount of explosive, black powder, under a large hunk of steel on undetermined structural integrity and set it off, what could possibly go wrong? Remember it is not the thousand times everything goes right that is going to cause you grief, it is the one time everything goes wrong.