Avadon

What is that blue thing!? That looks really cool. Anytime I see really nice color my eyes open up. I'm probably part squirrel. Check out this treasure box I made years ago.. looks like it should be next to your blue sphere.

The best test of one skills are going to be in the making of something you don't see anyone else doing. That is to say the best test will be to do something you've never done before and requires a lot from you and additionally won't readily give to outside help. ;) Those are always the hardest projects. But without tackling something hugely difficult I like the ideas so far. The chest is a great idea as mentioned. Shackles, gates, hinges, trellis', and my personal favorite roses. A lot of smiths can make a rose, but making one that looks really good takes a lot of patience and skill. -And you can put a rose on virtually anything from a candle holder to a gate and it will greatly add to the quality.

Unfortunately you do meet some people who have the wrong attitude in the community, negative, unhelpful, judging, condescending, etc. Sorry to diminish your high. Thankfully though these people are quite few and far between. Like many artistic communities, the majority are willing to bend over backwards to help you get started by offering sage advice and even sometimes tangible help with materials/tools. Many people here have helped me from day one and continue to do so. Therefore I'm a big believer of paying it forward to others who are just getting started. I think this is par philosophy in the blacksmithing community: Use the knowledge and skills that are given to you and pass them on to others so we can continue this great art. As for it being "spiritual" that is a tricky question. I think any art can be anything from relaxing to becoming the basis for a religion and everything in between. If you ever played the game 'Thief' by Eidos, there was a religious sect called the "Hammerites" and they were blacksmiths, forgers, and mechanists. It was fairly intriguing simply because you could see something like that happening in a medieval world. The actual history of art and religion are nearly inseparable as art (an expression of the human condition) has chronicled religion (an expression of mankind's belief in the divine) in so many countless ways from painting to engineering and everything in between. Blacksmithing itself has been chronicled in the iconography of the medieval time and championed in the age. I believe politically though this was mostly due to smithing being the engine of warfare as this is where the society would turn for weapons, armor, etc. But clearly the blacksmith was as important for that age as a supermarket is for our age. Neither age could hardly survive a day without it.

That sounds like a lot of air to have to push if your using a 6" duct. I'm guessing that a 4" duct is more reasonable for point extraction or even small hood? Is that right? These http://www.ebay.com/itm/350252094762?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 fans only do 449CFM not even close to what you are estimating I would need in a 6" duct. Where Do I find these 3HP/13" impellers?

Sorry for the delay, crazy busy work schedule. Does the fan of incoming air disrupt the path of smoke going up the flue at all? Is the fan inline or blowing across the front of the forge? Or does it even matter? Sorry, I can't tell orientation very well from your picture.

Thanks Alan!! That makes a lot of sense and really helped progress my thinking a great deal. Thanks for sharing that. :)

and you create positive pressure by just using fans to bring it in? Then does that mean you don't use exhaust fans? Or does that mean you use fans to bring it in and expel it?

Alan, can you describe what is going on in the pictures? I guess I don't understand what air is going where. I couldn't find a "straw bale building" thread. can you link me to it? Do you just mean that the intake to the shop is not pulled in by an exhaust van or by the heat movement of the forge, but rather fresh is forced in via a fan?

Can you tell me how positive pressure ventilation works? I couldn't find much on google about it in a shop.

Yah that's what I was wondering, if I need the small point extraction exhaust and then a large hood the size of the table as well ~4x8. That might just be overkill. Like you said, too much power is required to create a draw on that size. I really like your cardboard hood idea. I think I might try that (higher up of course) over my forge to see if it can help. I guess with that much heat rising up, if you have sufficient intake, it should pull fresh air in at an immensely rapid level. how does one test to make sure they have enough fresh air in a shop when forging? Is a CO detector enough or would I be better off buying something that can tell me how fresh the air is?

Very interesting responses. Thanks for the help. Do you know which chart you used. There are so many and most I can't seem to readily understand. Also how many cfm rated motor-fan is best for 6"?

Yes if you know anyone who knows the answer to the forge hood size question that would be great. In a point extraction system I need something at least that can hold it's shape and be positioned around a 4'x8' area and suck up TIG fumes. It doesn't need to withstand high heat. But I think I have to stay away from any plastic components. - And I only need 1 extraction point for the welding.

Yes if you know anyone who knows the answer to the forge hood size question that would be great. In a point extraction system I need something at least that can hold it's shape and be positioned around a 4'x8' area and suck up TIG fumes. It doesn't need to withstand high heat. But I think I have to stay away from any plastic components. - And I only need 1 extraction point for the welding.

Hi Frosty.. Thanks for chiming in here. What I asked in our emails about hvac was for the new shop I want to build 36x68 but I'm having curious moments about my 24'x36' existing shop. As it is staggered stud I am trying to think ahead if possible so I don't have to go and rip out studs and expensive spray foam later on. I think welding downdraft tables are great, but I think I'm going to skip buildilng one in this life, I have way to many other projects and I think a point exhaust is probably good enough to vacuum out the fumes. Most of my work is pretty clean. Tig is pretty clean. Often if I'm going to weld on something painted or really grimy I will take it outside and weld on it during the day and let the massive amounts of smoke fume off of it. I do like your heat exchanger idea though. Some of the questions I still have are.. What is the best place to locate a clean air intake? low or high on a side of a wall? or on a roof? What should I weld hoods out of and how big are traditional hoods over a gasser? -and how many CFM should i be looking at to draw the bulk of those gasses off? Is there anything better than dryer-type ducting at home improvement stores out of which to build a point extraction arm? If anyone knows good answers to these questions I'd love to hear them. I definitely am on board with circulating the all the air in the shop as well as having point extraction at places where welding, sanding, and forging is being done.

Thanks for the compliment. I never really thought of putting a point exhaust at my KMG grinding station but I think that is definitely something to consider for the future. I don't have any pics of the finished shop yet because I'm about 80% through construction. Finishing walls and getting ready for spray foam this summer. I definitely understand what you mean about 'sealing it up tight' as yes you'll burn through the oxygen needed not only to breath but for the forge. I think my idea of "tight" means without sound escaping. I definitely need a large clean air draw but it will have to have an STC rating. So it will have to be some sort of inlet that channels through something like a sound isolated stack. I'll have to do more research on that. I guess one of my primary questions is should fresh air be drawn from low on a building, or on the side of a building or from the roof, or does it even matter?

I was trying to find a good semi-flex hose that didn't cost a million dollars. Do you know of any good semi-rigid hose you can use without having to shell out $1200 for a point extraction arm? I know what you mean, I may have to get my shop almost completely finished before I analyze what is the best way to ventilate as it does get a little complex when you think about where to draw from, where to exhaust to, etc. Shouldn't a fresh air intake be somewhere low towards the ground so it's not mixing with bad air that may be up near the top of the rafters? Or are you more like talking about pulling air from one gable end and pushing it out the other. That would be a good idea, but one of my gables is attached to my house so I can't bring fresh air from one side nor exhaust bad air on that side.

Propane gas forges. :)

How big of hoods do you suggest for propane forges? Should hoods be small like 2' x 2' or are they better off large like 4'x6'? is there some equation I need to know? As for the point exhaust for welding would something like this be any good http://www.ebay.com/itm/350252094762?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 it says it's 449 CFM. I had a hard time trying to find anything more powerful without really breaking the bank. A lot of those point extraction arms are really expensive.. like $1200 and that doesn't even come with a fan, or filter.

Hello Everyone, I'm calling in help from the pros once again. ;) What is the best method(s) for ventilating a smithy? It's a 24'x30' existing shop and I intend to have two forges in there and do smithing/welding. Some questions: I know colleges have point exhaust systems for welding. Where can I buy a point exhaust system for all my tig welding? Is it practical to build one? I'm trying to stop having to always exchange all the air in the shop, especially during cold winters/hot summers where I have to recondition all the air coming in. The shop has staggered stud walls and furred out trusses to 2x6's. It has 6 existing roof vents, which are about 10"x10" openings. What should I do with these. Box them with lumber so we can spray foam around them? they look like sorta like this Outside of a point exhaust I'm thinking of a way to exchange the air in the shop with significant volume and speed for times when I really need to push everything out quickly. I did this in my old shop with strong cross ventilation. It would suck from storm windows and blow out through others but I don't have that luxury anymore. I'd like to have the walls of the shop fairly closed up to take advantage of my sound suppression. So I'm thinking I need some sort of baffled/insulated intake so I can bring fresh air in and then blast it out of the roof. Would I be best off taking the vent in the middle of the roof, enlarging it, and trying to mount some sort of high power exhaust fan under that vent to pull all the bad air up and out? I thought about making some hoods over the forges but with my rafters spray foamed I'm thinking everything will just go up to the ceiling anyway. I'm going to spray foam the rafters and put 2" of rigid foam over the rafters. Do you really gain anything from hoods and exhaust conduit? Since everything is sealed I just figured all the smoke would pretty much funnel to the top of the inverted v shape anyway. Also: Where should I position an intake(s)? Should i mess with air exchangers?

oddly enough OSB is quieter than plywood, in that it has a better sound absortion rate giving it a slightly better tested STC value (and it's cheaper). However OSB is not very fun to paint, takes a ton of coats, and leaving it rough isn't as nice looking as finished plywood. If your going to hang OSB, you can might want to consider putting up the first panel, then applying green glue to dampen the sound before adding a second layer of OSB over it. (See green glue instructions). This does improve sound isolation, but clearly not as much as two layers of OSB on a decoupled wall or on a wall with resilient channels+clips. It won't do much though for an R-value.

They're actually quite artistic in themselves. What about forging some kind of holder for them so they can stand inverted and some sort of uniquely craft dripping system for the garden. They'd prolly sell at 10x the price. People blow tons of money on unique stuff for their gardens.

Sometimes I wonder if you find more smiths in the country simply due to the fact that noise abatement issues in the bigger cities is rather strict. If you move into the burbs and start setting up a smithy it won't be long before you draw negative attention. That is unless your in a basement or heavily insulated/sound suppressed shop. Neighbors will put up with a little, but if it becomes a daily occurrence they're probably going to report you.

I had this same issue when i moved here. Not the worry over hot metal but the concrete itself wasn't sealed and the previous owner had made some gnarly stains working on his engine or whatever. I looked all over my area and no one had a concrete sander. I ended up sanding the whole thing on my knees with a belt sander. It's a 24x30 shop. Can we say tedious! There were also big saw cut lines that I didn't want. I ended up finding this really great stuff at Shermin Williams. It's a two component epoxy that when it sets up it's very hard, but still sandable. I squirted that into the saw cut lines and when dry I sanded over them. Then I had a very smooth (think almost aircraft hanger smooth) surface. The problem with bare concrete like that though is that anything that drops on it can/will stain it. It's like a porous sponge, just waiting to soak up dirt, oils, solvents, etc. If your concrete is not sealed, and it probably isn't, then you have the same issue. After some research I found a concrete-finishing store not far from me. They sell this stuff called "Liquid Hard Ultra". I think it's about 250$ for 5 gallons of this stuff and about 2/3's of it I used on my 24'x30'shop floors. This is incredible stuff. If you can't get that name brand there are others that are fairly similar. All you have to do is make sure your concrete is clean. Scrub it with diluted muriatic acid as per instructions. Then you roll it on with a roller. Very easy application. Then there is also this white milky stuff, I'll have to get the name if your interested. But that stuff is applied over the liquid hard ultra for even more heavy duty protection. The result are very impressive concrete floors, that are very hard. Something about the chemical actually hardens the surface of the concrete. It definitely seems more chip resistant and it's spill protection is amazing. I could pour used motor oil on the concrete and come back days later and wipe it up with no stains/penetration. For concrete floors that I inherited when I bought the place, they sure are impressive. Now hot steel will still spatter if it hits the ground but I've never noticed it burning any pock marks. Weigh that against epoxy coated floors that I used to have and it was night and day. I had so many burn marks in the epoxy floors that they looked horrible. I'll never use anything other sealed concrete as I'm very impressed with how it turned out. Took me about 6 weeks to do the whole job though. I had to move a lot of machinery as well as I didn't have anywhere else to put it. Also if you don't have any stains and the concrete is already very smooth, you could just clean the concrete and go right to sealing it. If you don't think my advice will help you, open the yellow book and call some concrete slab/foundation guys and pick their brains. Most will be happy to tell you what you need without trying to fish any money out of you. I've done this before and most contractors will give you pretty good advice. After all they may have a future customer or at least someone new who will pass their name around. I've seen guys also pour what looks like a 1/2" of sand over their floors as well, or at least a small section. Seems to work for them. For me, I cringe at the thought. I would be tracking so much sand into the house that it would be a nightmare. lol

I definitely know from working around metals, fumes and toxic gasses throughout my life that just because your not falling over dead from an exposure, or even a dozen exposures, it doesn't mean that it's not immensely effecting your health. Sometimes these exposures are having a moderate to severe impact upon your health but aren't acutely recognized until some hugely alarming symptom arises. The best idea here is to remove as much risk as possible so there isn't a unknown build up in your body from exposure to a toxic chemical/gas/dust/etc.

Interesting thread. I've always been working toward getting a shop that has a very high STC (sound suppression) value so neighbors can't be annoyed by the hammering sounds. Unfortunately it seems like getting the shop super tight is a recipe for serious toxicity. I guess a heavily sound proofed shop with exhaust and windows open is probably less obnoxious than a totally unsoundproofed shop. However, is there a way to have your cake and eat it too? Is it possible to exhaust over a large forge hood and also bring in fresh air without opening up large doors to expose neighbors to all the deafening noise? There must be some medium. I know when I used to have my shop in a basement that there was so much earth that not a lot of sound actually escaped the 3' wide 1' tall small storm basement windows, yet they brought in massive amounts of cross ventilation. My CO detector never went off when forging and I never had a hood over it.