bogmonster

Ok, a few more details. Front and back plates 10m. Base 12mm, dies 25mm x 50mm O1 (maybe not the best but available). Side posts 25mm square. Tools used: Bandsaw Drill press Hacksaw Cold chisel Stick welder Taps Files Countersink bit Kiln The plates are 100mm wide by 130mm tall. I have the option to cut out sections of the sides to pass stock through the sides. The dies have bees hardened and tempered (after photos taken). They have m12 bolts for striking buttons. To save expensive steel I used machine screws to attach swege die faces to mild steel die bodies. Still to do: Removable plate with hardy stake (removable so I can use in my yet to be built treacly hammer :) Paint Shims for front plate - bits of beer can..... This was my first try cutting plate with a cold chisel, first try tapping holes and first try heat treating so a big learning curve. Regards, Chris.

Here are a few pics of the helper I am currently making. Still work in progress but hope to get some time to finish this weekend. The design is heavily based on John B's. I have changed the design a bit due to skill and tool availability. Will provide more details if folks are interested. Cheers, Chris.

Looks like a good build and a neat job. I have just made one of these albeit with a different design. No spring in mine, apparently many folks don't like using a spring as it is harder to feel where the steel is fullered. At least if you add a spring you can allways remove it. Not sure how I could add a spring to mine... I planned to post some pics of my build but sadly I can't post a new thread :( BW, Chris.

Hi, Thanks for all the help. The HT is now done and as far as I can tell all was OK. Used ceramic kiln for hardening heat. Quenched in auto gearbox oil. Tempered in mail box kiln (swapped the controller over from the main kiln). Used gas forge and off-cuts of steel to pre-heat the quench oil. All in all a dirty, messy job but not difficult. Only slight drama was nearly losing one of the dies down the side of one of the kiln shelves in the top loading kiln. That would have been annoying as there would have been no way to retrieve until the kiln had cooled. All that is left is to forge and weld on a stake so I can place the helper in my anvils hardy hole. I will do a separate write up of the tool, might help another newbie like me. EDIT: Other post will have to wait - don't appear to be able to create a new thread or even send a PM to the admininstrators. Permission error :( I don't think I have done anything so terrible to get barred :( Chris. You have done nothing wrong that I know of. We are working on the software posting perrmissions code.

Cheers Thomas, Sounds like option 1 is a goer then - I like this having just forked out for a very expensive car service :( I was planning on using veg oil as i don't fancy the outlay of purpose quench oil or the toxic chemicals of engine oil. Had already tested the oven idea out on SWMBO and got raised eyebrows but no outright objection :) For O1 I found: Tempering Temperature F Rockwell C 300 65 350 63 400 62.5 450 61 500 60 600 57 Still trying to find the correct answer but it looks like tempering towards the top of the top of that range is probably appropriate and beyond my oven's temp. I was planning to temper at about 530F that I think will be about 59 Rockwell. It seems that is what hammer heads are typically hardened to. As my dies will have striking buttons I am not going to be thumping the die directly with the hammer. Cheers, BM.

Hi, At risk of asking another really dumb question... I have annealed some scrap from the car boot sale. Some in the forge using a magnet and some in the kiln. A crowbar I bought for £1 had the decency to have the steel grade stamped on the side. All appeared to work OK as far as I can tell - they all ended up in a soft state to machine (I know this isn't the full definition of success). I also now have the O1 for the dies. I have shaped my first die pair but still waiting for the M12 taps for the button. I did however come up with a potential snag in my kiln HT plan. If I use the kiln to get up to a precise temp to harden then said kiln will be way too hot to temper immediately after the quench. Shock cooling the kiln is very bad idea as it will destroy the bricks very quickly and the kiln is too good to screw up like that. So I am looking at alternatives: 1) Would it be OK to temper (at a lower temp than I ultimately need for my desired hardness) in the kitchen oven. My oven probably will not get hot enough for the final hardness I am after and it is definitely not very accurate. Then a day later temper again in the kiln at the required temperature? I have seen posts on double and triple tempering (which appears to be a good practice by most - well double anyway). However from what I can tell double tempering is usually at the same temp. Will there be any adverse side effects of tempering at a lower temp in my oven first and then tempering at the desired temp in my kiln a day later. 2) I do actually have a second kiln (homemade one this time - post box annealer design). This kiln was designed for glass annealing so will struggle to get to critical temp for steel but will definitely get to annealing temps. Sadly I have used its controller for the other kiln. I could make up a simple PID controller for this (but want to avoid the cost of a ramp / soak PID unit). I could still ramp down albeit by manually changing the temp setting every 10 mins. 3) Last option is to use a thermocouple in a multimeter and man a switch :( That sounds like a real PITA and not something I want to do. 4) Leave the kiln to cool down for say 10 hours'ish and then temper - leaving the steel in its quenched and hardened state all this time. Everything I have read says not to do this. Is it a big risk on a 1 x 2 x 4 inch block of O1? If option 1 will work then great, no more outlay of cash. If option 1 is a bad idea I think I will go for option 2. Option 3 just sounds too much hassle, too much time and too much potential to cock it up. So in short, will option 1 work adequately? Regards, BM.

Hi Steve, I hope I have not caused offense and I have not taken any either. I had read many posts including your sticky but clearly I was confused about a few things and I feel more confident now. On the notion of using / not using a magnet, this came from experience I have with glass where you can anneal unknown glass by overheating and ramping slowly down - I wanted to know if the same concept could be applied to steel. Apparently not. Good job it works with glass though as magnets are of little use there :) Best wishes, Chris.

Just checked, kiln is good for 1300C so plenty of headroom. O1 anneal is 740 to 760 although I should not need to anneal again. Normalizing is 670 to 700. I think with this I can soak for 30 mins and then just turn the kiln off. Hardening is 780 to 820 with a soak at about 400 and then a soak at full temp for 30+ mins per 25mm - (I will soak for longer to ensure an even heat) . Not sure what a suitable ramp up rate is so need to check. Tempering is from 100 to 350 - Just need to work out a suitable hardness for the dies. For tempering I have read I should soak for at least 2 hours. I think I should then be able to turn the kiln off and let cool under its own steam - it will cool very slowly at this sort of temp but just in case I will set a ramp down for 40 degrees F (sorry mixed units there). I will set up some schedules with pre-heats soaks and hopefully it will all work out. BM

Thanks for taking the time for such a detailed reply John. Tapping the dies for M12 bolts for the strikers sounds a really good idea and takes a whole load of variables out of consideration. The kiln should certainly get hot enough, It is a ceramics kiln and I think it probably tops out at about 1150C. I like the idea of using the kiln because I can get nice long soaks at a known stable temperature. Temperatures for glass work are very critical and the thermocouple and controller have been calibrated. I may just wheel the kiln outside and use it to heat the dies for the hardening as well as the tempering. Mrs BM will get grumpy if I do the hardening in our conservatory, I will stink the house out and probably crack the slate floor dropping hot lumps of hot steel on it. I am feeling a bit more confident now :) I will try with one die to start with to see if I can get the process down properly. I have only purchased a 500mm length of O1 so if I totally screw it up it's not a complete disaster. If I can get it to work then more dies can come later. The steel won't arrive until after the bank holiday which will give me some more time to prep and read up. Oh, and mull it over with a few pints :) In the interim I will can crack on with making the frame. Cheers, BM.

Hi Steve, I have done some reading, my baseline would have been even lower otherwise :( There is a lot of contradictory info out there so I wanted to get some idea if I was on the right track. I take it from your comment that I am completely lost and wasting everyone's time so apologies to all. The trouble with trying to learn from internet is there is sometimes too much information and I don't know anybody locally who can actually show me. Hi Thomas, OK, sounds like the one temp fits all anneal was a duff idea. Happy to use the magnet if that will get good results. As for the tempering hardness I will do a bit more research. BW, BM.

Oh, another question if I may. For both the butcher tool and helper dies what sort of hardness am I after. Will light straw be appropriate which I beleive is about 445F? Reading up the soak time should be 1 hour for 1 inch + 1 hour from what I can make out. Just to be sure I will leave it a bit longer. Cheers, BM.

Hi, Ok, new to blacksmithing and definately new to heat treating. I have a couple of projects where I need to heat treat. Fist off I want to make some simple tools such as a hand held butcher from old files and like. I want to anneal first. I beleive I sould heat up to critical temp using a magnet to test. Then cool slowly. I do have an electric kiln with computer controlled ramp / soak controller (used for glass work mainly) that I could use. Because I will not know the grade of steel can I just heat up to the higher end of temps for annealing and cool slowly in a kiln instead? It looks like the higher the carbon content the lower the temp. Can I anneal say somewhere in the range of say 1450 to 1500 without the the magnetic test and get satisfactory results? I.e. if it was W1 steel that lists anneal temp as 1375 to 1400, what is the implication of holding at 1500 for 30 mins and cooling off slowly from there? I would still be going through the annealing temp at a slow rate regardless of the carbon rate. I ask this because putting multiple pieces of steel in the kiln sounds easier than cooling slowly in a bucket of lime or similar. By the way, I don't really want to open the kiln and do a nagmetic test when hot as this does not do the kiln bricks a lot of good. Hardenning is another issue as I don't know what to quench in. I am guessing that air hardenning seel is unlikely from the scrap I am likely to be using but I could try air hardenning and taking at it with a file just to be sure. I was thinking of just trying oil. Pressumably if the steel was supposed to be water hardenned then I would just end up with a tool that was not properly hardened, is that correct, as I am not making mission critical components then this would be OK? Obviously I don't want a hand tool to shatter when in use so water quenching an air hardenning steel sounds like a bad idea. Tempering will be done on a steel plate over a coke forge by colour. Right, now that one is out of the way, I plan to make a blacksmith's helper tool. I have some annealed O1 25mm x 50mm x whatever stock for the dies. I plan to: 1) Size and shape the dies. 2) Harden by quenching in oil. Question - should I harden the whole die (yes I think on the bottom as its only about 1.5" loing - on the top it will be abount 100mm long so I could only quench the bottom inch or two - this sounds right to me?) 3) Then stick weld on a striking button of mild steel 4) Then temper - again I hope to do this in the kiln and for the dies I will know the steel grade so I can set a precise temp in the kiln Anything wrong with the above sequence? Any other tips? Sorry for all the dumb questions - new at all this. BW, BM

Thanks for all the advise. I have made a monkey tool and have just ordered up some O1 steel to make a blacksmith's helper tool. I will also be making a butcher tool and will be giving mortice and tenon a go. Now onto heat treating but I will start another thread for that. BM

Of course I meant swage not fuller above - doh :wacko:

Yeah, I would have liked to gas weld and was actually taught to gas weld years ago but must have forgotten it all by now. Unfortunately I am using oxy/propane. Acetylene is difficult in a doestic property in the UK I think. Probably could get a neater job done with it though. For the tenons to get a clean edge do I need to use a 'set' tool. I am thinking here of an acute edge (say about 70 degrees) to form the shoulder first? I have a fly press and was thinking of making a set tool for that with top and bottom edges. Once the shoulders are done I think I could form the tennon over a nice square edge without too much difficulty. I have made a sqaure tenon in this way on a course (if I remember correctly). As for the fullers, I was going to have a go at making my own. I have some leaf spring which is quite thick in the middle. I was going to drill and then cut through center of hole to make two halfs. Because I would lose material with the blade kerf I might actually need to cut off center of the hole with one hole making only a top or bottom. I like the idea of drilling as I think this way I will get clean edges which I think will be required for the tenons. However I suspect I ahve this all wrong and there is a much easier way. BM.

Hi, Built a forge about a year ago and then ill health and general life got in the way so didn't do anything with it. Anyway, having another bash so to speak but I am starting from a very low experience level so please be gentle. Here is one of my first items: I actually started this ages ago and found it rusting in the back of the garage. Originally I planned wood turned candle holders (I am a wood turner) but decided metal would be better. The arms were already assembled so I needed to work out how to attach the cups. Had the arms not been assembled I would have tapered arms and punched the dishes but this did not seem like an option at this stage. I had an arc welder and brazing kit but don't really know how to use either. I bought some collars as I thought the dishes looked odd just on top the arms. I decided to braze and a lot of clean up was required. Overall I am not too unhappy with the look but it is 'rustic' - or messy to be more precise. What other options are out there? Arc was going to made a big mess. I guess I could have tried mig if I had a mig welder? Would (or should) that have looked neater? My preferance would be not to weld and to use traditional techniques but I am not completely against electric welding as long as the result is asthetically pleasing. The dish on this snake like candle is arc welded. Just a couple of tacks each side and hidden underneath. I have also made a couple of pot racks and these have used rivets. Nowhere to hang it up so here are some of the parts balanced on my leg to give the general idea. Obviously there are another 2 drop bars and lots more hooks. For the cross bars I think they should have been mortice and tennon but instead I just mushroomed the ends over and probably left too much stock length so the heads are too large. I have some other questions about fire height (too low in firepot) in the forge and mortice and tennon joints but will save that for another day. We have family coming around for Easter Sunday and Mrs BM will start shoulting at me soon...... BW, BM.

Hi, Having just bought a fly press I thought I would try drawing out with it. I know that this is not the strong point of a fly press so was not expecting much. Well, I was very pleasantly surprised. I am posting this because I have seen this topic discussed before and the general reply is that fly presses are not good for drawing out - not disagreeing with this, just adding my perspective. Some context: I have not been blacksmithing long so low on skills and technique. Low stamina and wasted muscles wastage due to continued slow recovery from an illness. Working on smallish dimension stock - 16mm round yesterday. I made a top and bottom tool from a leaf spring - about 1/2 inch in diameter with rounded edges and almost flat on top - bit like a loaf of bread shape. Not a traditional radius for a fuller tool although I did start with that. I used the tool as a fuller to draw out and then turn the stock 90 degrees to take out the uneaven fuller depressions using the length of the tool and the flatish middle section. Only using it to create a square taper and then moving over to the anvil. I have found I can draw out far easier and with much less effort using this approach. Clearly with a manual fly press you get out only what you put it similar to a hammer. I think what has helped me is with a fly press much of the effort is spread to the whole body so less strain on my feeble arms. Also it is easy to get a very precise action with the press and little force is lost. Part of my issues might be sub-standard fullers on the anvil. I have tried a bottom fuller and a spring fuller. I suspect that a fuller tool in a blacksmiths helper with top and bottom fullers would be much more effective. I suspect that poor technique also plays a big part. Of course a power hammer would beat it every time but that is difficult for me due to noise and cost (a fly press is cheap in the UK). I am also sure an experienced and healthy blacksmith would be able to draw out quicker at the anvil than I can with a fly press. All I am sqying is that in my limited experience a fly press has been a massive help for my drawing out and speeded the process up considerably. Cheers, BM.

Ha, I will tell Mrs BM that I am going to buy a lathe next :) She will be delighted. Actually, my neighbour who has the other press has acquired an old metal lathe - it's in storage at the moment but we will get it set up soon. I am totally out of room in my garage (hobby blacksmith in domestic property in UK = small). There is a big lathe in my garage but it is a wood turning lathe. Shavings and sparks - what a great combination :wacko: Chris.

Hi, I am the proud owner of a Norton no 6 fly press. Got it installed today. Quite heavy but help was at hand and the help came with the lifting kit that made the job simple :) Also got a Norton 2A from the same person but that has gone to a friend. Anyway, there was supposed to be some tooling with the press but it was left behind when it was delivered. May get it, who knows. Either way the presses look to be in good condition and the price was good. 100 pounds for the 2 with tables. So me thinks about making some tooling and plan to use cut off bolts for the shafts. Measure hole in ram with cheapo callipers and a bit surprised to see both were quite a bit under 1 inch - guessed cheap callipers. Found a 1 inch shaft tool - nope, not going to fit. Next tried a 15/16ths, plenty of room. I think the hole is close to 25mm but that sounds very odd given the age of the machine. The rim of the hole in the ram is not perfect but does not feel too bad. Every press I have heard of is imperial - anybody got any ideas? Both presses are the same. It is not the end of the world, I can try and find some M25 bolts to but down is they will fit. Cheers, Chris.

By the way Tim, I have almost finished a hearth using John's plans. I found it easy enough to make given my very limited fabrication skills. I adapted the design slightly by making the hearth longer and using angle iron to add strength. I am only tack welding the fire pot in so it is easy to remove and repair bits if needed - might not be worth it. Also the fire box is steeper but that is due to my poor oxy/propane cutting skills :( Anyway, have not fired it up yet, this weekend I hope :)

Just been on the 3 day intensive course. Learned a lot (I hope, time will tell :) ). Anyway, if I failed to learn that is on me. I am reasonably pleased with the items I made but the real value is not what you make, it is what you learn. The important thing is to put this into practice and improve on the quality - that will take time and experience. It was a great weekend and John was a good and patient instructor. The pace was just about right I would say. I found the 3 days hard going but I have poor health and spent quite a while monopolizing the shop stool and asking dumb questions John had already explained... Anyway, I am building a hearth and have plans to make some of the new tools I have been introduced to. I would fully recommend this course for a beginner. BW, Bogmonster.

Thanks for the help. I have some 4mm bright rod I will try as I could get it locally and in small quantities.

Hi, Not sure if this is in the correct section.... Newbie alert :( I am making a candelabra from 12mm round with wood turned pillar candle holders. I have made a jig for the arms and they look good. I plan to arc weld (or braze if I buy an oxy propane torch) six arms to a central shaft with a hook on the top. I want to hide the welding with a wire wrap. I may also wrap wire down the arms in a wide spiral. I think 4mm is about the correct size. Trouble is I don't know what to buy. I have had a look at F H Brundle (I am in the UK) and they sell wire. They sell hard drawn and mild drawn. Presumably either is of for my purpose but a dumb question, what is the difference, presumably the mild drawn is easier to work? They also sell copper coated. This sounds like it will add the the finished item nicely. Any issues with using copper coated? I don't think I will need to braze (or weld) the wire in place as I hope the wrapping will hold it secure enough? Presumably I could braze if I wanted to? Sorry for the dumb questions... Help, Chris.

In the end I opted for a steel rim with tire filled with concrete, steel tube through middle and steel plate on top - thanks for the idea Frosty. I still need to weld on tool rails and a clamp to hold the leg firmly and paint but the whole contraption works quite well. The wheel is off a old Landrover Discovery which has a 4.5 inch centre hole allowing a sturdy post to be welded straight in. All in it weighs the far side of 200kg and is quite stable. To move comfortably I need to use a lever clamped into the vice so I can get it on its side to roll it. The lever tends to twist a bit in the jaws so I will make something that will be more secure. There is a small amount of give as the steel wheel flexes so I may weld in some diagonal braces for more stability but not really sure it is necessary. There is very little give in the tire and with most of the force going through the leg this is looking to be very satisfactory indeed. BW, Chris.

Thanks for your help again John. I will have a dig about and try and add my location but until I find the right setting it's the Mendips in Somerset. Of course if I drag my heals with it I can look at the ones in Exeter in Feb and pick your brains in person :)