Spruce

The regulator I have is supposed to run from 0 to 30 PSI I believe, from memory. It is not just a regular fryer or barbecue regulator. I think my copper lines are 1/8" - they have a larger ID than the 1/8" schedule 80 pipe nipple that I tapped for the mig tip. Come to think of it, I don't know what the XXXX they measure as 1/8" on 1/8" lines, but the ID is a lot bigger than 1/8". In any case, it seems to flow plenty of gas - if I can put this thing on absolute jet engine roar, then gas flow isn't my problem, is it? And it is indeed a 2 burner - the picture is just taken from xxxx xxxx in front, so you can only see one. Here is a side view: Spruce

Alright, I have built 2 forges now, 2 different styles, and 2 different type burners. Neither got hot enough. The first one I built was out of an air tank - had 2 Z burners in it - the ones with the ward reducing T. It would get metal to dull orange, or bright orange after a while, but never yellow or above. It seemed like the burners were working well - had a nice shaped flame, could make it reducing or oxidizing - had 2 inches of kaowool, and then the whole thing coated in plistix (I think that's what I tried that time). Anyway, I didn't like it, because I found there were things I couldn't fit in it, so I redesigned to the below contraption. As you can see, this one is pretty small, with 2 Frosty style burners. Probably too small for 2 burners, but I XXXX sure wanted to get hot, so I went with overkill. Back pressure may be an issue now, but I still get good looking flame - anywhere from reducing to oxidizing. I've found this forge to work better than my last - gets hotter, quicker, and I like the square shape - seems to fit things nicely, and I can open it up to fit larger things in, kind of like a Diamondback forge. The burners have stainless flares on the end. I just tried to get two pieces of 3/8 round bar up to forge welding temperature - just to see if I could, and to try to learn to forge weld. I absolutely cranked the propane regulator open - unfortunately I couldn't tell you the PSI because my regulator didn't come with a gauge. In any case, it was absolutely roaring - getting a blue flame maybe 6 inches long - hitting the floor of the forge and curling to the sides. Had quite a bit of yellow dragons breath. It still behaved kind of like normal - gets up to orange pretty quickly, but I have to leave stuff a long time to get to bright orange. I left them in there for a good 5 or 8 minutes, and got them up to bright orange, or maybe dull yellow, but certainly not bright yellow, or white, or hot enough for sparks to jump off. At this point I'm kind of sick of building forges - I would rather have one awesome forge which worked, which would always get my metal hot enough, or even too hot enough if I wasn't careful - I feel like I've done quite a bit of forging at lower temperatures than ideal - it would be nice to be able to start my forging at the yellow, but I can't get it to that. I'm now wishing I had just ordered hybrid burners, so I was done with it. Any suggestions folks? I'm not really sure what my next step should be. I may just order two hybrid burners, and build some sort of brick pile forge, so that I can make it any shape I want and just be done with it. Thanks in advance, Spruce

Alright - spent the last couple of days playing around in the garage working on the wedding rings, as well as a couple other odds and ends. Here are the fruits of my labor: The billet: I used sterling silver and nickel. 9 layers, 5 nickel and 4 silver, sandwiched in a bolt plate assembly and bonded in a gas forge. I found it actually bonded a little easier than the quarter stacks I've been practicing on. But, it definitely didn't work as easily - working from a black heat is a pain - a roll mill would have made life much easier. After a while though it started to act like one piece and started moving really nicely - at first it was pretty hard though - didnt' get much movement between heats and I had to heat it up often. The original strips were 1/2" by 3" and the stack was about 1/2" high. Drew it out with a hammer and anvil till it was about 6 or 7 inches long, at a guess, sanded flat with a benchtop belt sander. As it got thin I started making repeated cuts across it and then hammering it smooth again. The last time I made a series of Xs across it - I think this was the key. In fact, I'm not sure how much good my earlier cuts even did. I think i could have forged it down to almost its final thickness, cut my Xs even more intricately, an then forged smooth. Will tr that next time. Made inner liners out of 22 gauge sterling, hard soldered together, and dressed on the ring mandrel. Did the same for the mokume, and sized them so that I had to hammer the liner into the mokume. Medium soldered them together. Then sanded and polished using a variety of different things, but I did order a POS spindle lathe, which made life much much easier. Used an inside ring mandrel, and sanded down to 400 grit. Very happy with the outcome, although the first ring I made I sized a little too small, and while tapping it down the ring mandrel, it snapped. I can solder it back together, but I'm not using it for the wedding ring. So, using the rest of the billet I was just barely able to get the two rings out of it, but, it meant I had to use one end of the billet where I had a little delamination of the very top part of the pattern. As I bent it, the little splotch popped off, which makes that part of the ring a little plain. Also, I had to sand it down a little more than I would have liked to get rid of the dent. I should have silver soldered that flake on - I did that with another little blemish, and it worked great. Oh well, not bad for a mega crash course in mokume! A few months ago I had never made a piece of jewelry before in my life. All in all I only have a few days into this, and I learned everything either from here, books, or other internet searching. Learning to solder was maybe the hardest part - I don't have a very good setup - just a torch like I would use for sweating pipes together. A more delicate torch would be very nice. Anyway, thanks for the help everybody! It's been an awesome experience and I'm psyched for more! It's no James Binnion piece, but not too bad! I must say I owe the Steve Midget book a lot - that thing was invaluable! Spruce

Wow - glad I checked back - awesome information jbin! And awesome work - if I could make a ring look anything close to the one I first posted I would be ecstatic. I've gotten pretty good at my quarter stack mokume - have no trouble forming a billet now, and drawing out into a long thin piece which I can make into a band (man, I would love to get a rolling mill - I'm forging it out). But, I haven't gotten my pattern to look quite like I want it - getting closer every time. Might I ask what you did to achieve such an awesome pattern in the ring posted above? I'm getting close using the ladder technique - cutting grooves out of my billet every so often, but I think I've been overdoing it - I think I need to cut shallower. I am really glad to hear about the nickel silver and sterling silver working well together - that is what I am hopefully going to use... as long as I can get it to bond. Will be trying within the next few days... Spruce

Hey all, Just wondering if anybody had a source for hydraulic cylinders, such as could be used in a forging press, for a reasonable amount? I got the Batson book, and man, apparently the prices for components were much cheaper in 1994. The recomended cylinder would be something close to a 5" bore, 8" stroke, double acting, tie rod cylinder. Anybody have any of those floating around? Or know of a good source for them? Or something they can be pilfered from which you might conceivably find at a junk yard? Spruce

Thanks for the info fellas - I'll hold off on this unit. Once I get the book and crunch numbers I'm sure I'll get a better understanding of what I need. Macbruce - I guess I should rephrase my above post to state, "smaller bore cylinder" everywhere instead of just my arbitrary 20 ton number. But, correct me if I'm wrong, if you take a pump and cylinder setup which is running a larger bore cylinder, and then take off the large cylinder and put on a smaller bore one, all other things remaining the same, it will move the smaller bore cylinder faster, correct? Or not? If that is how it works, then you could keep getting a smaller bore cylinder, until you got one which moved fast enough, and then see if it produced enough tonnage (all mathematically of course, if you had all the numbers). All this is a moot point, because the 2 hp unit will be too small, but in any case, in a nutshell, is that how it will work? Unfortunately, unless a deal floats along in front of my face, I don't think I'm likely to build a press all that soon - got way too much other stuff happening right now. But, it's fun to think about and plan. Spruce

Seems like more HP might be needed. I understand completely that speed is crucial, and that tonnage comes after. I would still be interested to know the specs on this pump - if it moved a 40 ton press at a high psi but low speed, how quickly is it capable of moving a ram with a much smaller bore? If you keep reducing the size of the bore, eventually it would move plenty fast. For example if you plumbed this thing into a ram the size of a syringe, it would move XXXX fast - obviously a syringe sized ram would be useless, but there is a middle ground. But basically, if this was plumbed to a 20 ton cylinder, you think it would still be far too slow? That's about all I needed to know - will wait on building my press for now - and will have the book whenever it ships, and can figure out what specs I need. Thanks, Spruce

Well, if this used to operate a 40 ton press, which is going to have a large diameter bore, my thought is a 20 ton press would move much quicker, yet still be powerful enough for my needs - I don't remember the formulas off the top of my head, so I can't work out exactly how fast it would move, but hopefully once I get that book, I can figure it all out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but horse power does not equal ram speed - ram speed is gallons per minute versus the volume of your ram. Horsepower is how hard it will push that given amount of fluid. So the 2 hp doesn't necessarily mean it will be slow - I just need to get a small enough ram, which still has enough power to push that sized ram. Is this correct? Spruce

A guy is selling a motor/pump unit on my local craigslist for what seems like a reasonable price, and I think he'll come down. Here's the link: http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/tls/4155228110.html It's only a 2 hp unit. Can be 110 or 220 volt. He doesn't have the flow rates of the pump, but says it originally came off a 40 ton press. I'm wondering if I can use it for a smaller, say 20 ton press, if it will move the ram fast enough and have enough power. I ordered the James Batson book, but don't have it yet. Any thoughts? The seller is trying to contact the manufacturer of the pump to find out it's flow rates - short of that, is there any convenient method of finding flow? Just plumb it, and put the outfeed tube into a bucket and see how long it takes to fill up a gallon? I am pretty new to the trade, and am mostly working on small stuff right now, so I think a 20 ton would be pretty handy. I realize I could just spend my time swinging a hammer and learning more, but I think I enjoy building tools, jigs, fixtures etc. even more than most projects - I've always been like that for some reason. Dunno why. Anyway, thanks in advance, Spruce

I'm going to try nickel and sterling silver - we'll see how it goes... If it doesn't work, or it wears prematurely or whatever, then so be it - all part of the game as far as myself and the misses are concerned. That being said, I sure hope it goes well:) Going with straight bands, nothing set in them, probably a plain old flat pattern, and lined with sterling silver, assuming I can figure that step out. Will play around with my quarter stacks some more once the silver comes in. Also, hopefully you have gone through the learning curve before then, and I can just look at your pictures and write up, to save me screwing up a few times...:) Spruce

Oh, and Chinobi - you should definitely make a ring with a silver liner and do a write up about it - that would be super helpful! Spruce

Well, if someone knows of the link and PMs it to me, then great. If not, oh well, there's plenty of info out there, I'm sure I'll survive. I do remember it being pretty neat though. Chinobi - I got a copy of Midget's book through ILL - not ideal, but at least I have the info available for a while. I may copy a section or two to get me by the next few weeks, but after seeing the book, I can say that if I keep working with mokume, it is worth paying a few hundred for. In general I think it kind of sucks to pay that much for a book, but if you think of it like a quality tool, it makes it feel better - you would pay a few hundred for a nice forge or anvil or something, so why not the knowledge on how to use them? In any case, what I need right now is to try and make my wedding bands - my future in mokume after that is yet to be determined... but I can say that it is super fun and I hope to explore it more.

Alrighty - back in the land of the living after a month of hell working a turnaround at a refinery - so, back to smithing and mokume! I haven't fully decided what I'm going to do, but I've been thinking about putting a silver lining inside whatever ring I do make, to ensure there's no corrosion or skin problems - I thought there was a link posted at one point in this forum on a method of doing that??? Any info or places to look would be great. I assume it's a matter of taking some sheet silver, folding it around the inside of the ring, and then soldering the whole thing together, then sanding down the excess solder etc. But, I really haven't done much soldering and things like that, so I'm kind of unfamiliar with how easy it is to get solder to flow through something like that. Doesn't seem too bad, but what do I know??? Also, I got my hands on a copy of Midget's book - what a trove of information that is! Very excited to get back into the garage and start playing around. Thanks again, Spruce

Btw chinobi, do you have any info on putting silver on the inside? I'm hoping its in the books I have coming, but so far I haven't found a ton of info on it. Do you electroplate it, then sand off the outside? Or just start with silver on the bottom and try to keep it there throughout the process? Or is there another method to get it on the inside as one of the last steps?

Yeah, I wasn't super happy about my solder seam, or very worried about it either though - since these are just practice quarter stacks, and can't really be worn without turning your finger green anyway, I was more concerned about the process and how the patterns would come out etc. rather than achieving a perfect finish. I hammered that sucker down, drew it out, bent it around, silver soldered it, hit it super quick with a grinding disc on a dremel, then a 220 flap wheel on the dremel, and called it good. I just have Ferguson's coming, and Midgett's as well supposedly. We'll see how successful the ILL is, but the librarian said it should come in a couple of weeks. I've seen some neat videos of people using washers, made with a disc cutter, to get some cool results. Basically, I think you can draw your washer down over a ring mandrel, which sort of turns it flat, instead of having your pattern on edge. As you get close to the size you want, you take it off the mandrel, and put it on again, upside down, so that it doesn't end up in a cone shape matching your mandrel. At least that's the theory anyway - I've yet to actually try it... Spruce

Also, the above is without any etching or patinaing at all. Right now it's sitting in vinegar, to bring out the definition some more. Any thoughts on different finish techniques for quarter stacks? Man, I'll be glad when these books come in - I hate not being able to look up the answer to these basic questions. Thanks again, Spruce

Been searching around trying to find a place to buy my nickel from - had to request a quote from onlinemetals.com. Couldn't seem to find any which I could just order a certain sized piece from, which were also zinc free. Anyway, hopefully should have metal, and some other odds and ends on the way. In the meantime, I've been practicing with quarters some more. I don't have any pictures of my first billets and rings, but here is the one I made today: Made from a few bucks worth of quarter like objects, drawn out - I tried cutting grooves into the billet, then drawing out more and more, down to ring size, but it doesn't seem to have done much to the pattern. The above pic is a band around the size I want, and I have enough left over from the billet to make two rings easily of my wife's size, to play around with and see what I like the look of. I'm still not sure about the soldered joint yet - might order a plug cutter, might not. Thoughts? Spruce

Hmm - Leaning towards working with silver, and either nickel or white gold. Chinobi - you say to stay away from nickel alloyed with zinc - so far all nickel sheet I've found is alloyed with zinc. Will this definitely not work? Can you point me towards a source of usable zinc? White gold and silver would be the ideal combination - I'm just scared to screw up with white gold... spruce

Chinobi - thanks again for an awesome response! That gives me some great food for thought, and some stuff to work towards. I've started trying to get my hands on Fergusons book and Midgett's - I think I can get them both through the ILL - will find out for sure on Monday. Very psyched to get my hands on those! Spruce

Copy that Frosty - I guess my main question is basically, what metals give pretty subtle contrast? I understand about pattern development, and plan on playing around until I get the pattern I like - I think it will probably just be plain old layered mokume gane, with stock removal to expose the layers. What I'm trying to achieve however, is basically the wavy silver on silver pattern - not silver with gold or copper or something else. So can anyone tell me what metals to use to get a silver on silver type pattern, but which will still show up when you look close-ish - and preferably metals which will work well over the years in a ring? Will hopefully get back to playing around tomorrow and see what I can figure out. Spruce

Hey Chinobi Thanks for the info and links - will look into those for sure. At least it gives me some idea what direction to go in. As for the photo - I would credit it, but I don't know whose work it is - I found it in the middle of another iforgeiron thread, and the person who posted it over there didn't credit it either. I haven't seen it in any of my google image searching (although I bet its there - I haven't searched super hard), so short of searching the entire internet, I don't know how to credit it. Chinobi - with your experience in silver, can you recommend metals which will give an effect of multiple layers of silver laminated together? Basically I don't want copper or gold or the like - I like that layered silver look. But, if I just layer several pieces of silver, will the pattern show up? Or will it all blend together and look like one solid piece of metal? Perhaps sterling silver, with a harder type of silver, so that the acid will eat away the sterling quicker than the harder silver? As for the shape of the rings - I think I'll make my band pretty similar - just a band. But for hers, I don't want a seamless or washer type ring. Instead I'm thinking of drawing it out, and bending it around, and letting the two ends overlap each other, with some space in between, to set something - mostly likely some pretty wood. Probably purple heart and maybe bubinga - not sure yet. I've done a lot more woodworking than metal working, and the two of us are trying to set up a wood and metal shop, so it makes for an apt ring. We'll see though - I'm going to play around with quarters and things to get the hang of the process and see what I can come up with. I'll post photos once I have some OK looking product. To make the billet I made yesterday, I used the clamp technique - four bolts holding together two metal plates, with the stack of quarters in between, and tossed it in my forge. I was trying to watch it closely, but all of a sudden it got to melting point, and a lot of the nickel started to run - I pulled it out quick, and gave it a couple whacks with my hammer. Then took it out of the clamp, reheated it, hit it some more, then started forming. But, I know I lost a lot of my nickel, and had one delamination right in the middle of the billet. It was a decent sized billet though, so the two pieces which were left were still workable, and drew them out, and bent them into rings - one with a twist, one without. What method do you use for welding your silver together Chinobi? Spruce

Hey all - I recently asked a question about making wedding rings over in the blacksmithing general forum, and people posted up some replies about mokume gane - this stuff is awesome! Today I tried messing around with a stack of quarters, and had decent success - not a perfect weld - got it too hot in my forge, but I still got two decent sized billets out of the process. I can't wait to see what the look like once shaped and polished. After I practice on quarters and the like, I want to move up to some different metals - stuff which won't corrode or stain the skin over time. What I would like to achieve would be some cool patterns, of subtley different metals ie not silver and gold. Something like the image below (at least for pattern and colors - I want to shape it differently for my purpose). Can anyone enlighten me as to what two metals might make a pattern similar to this one? Preferably two metals which won't corrode with prolonged contact to the skin. Thanks in advance! Photo and The ring is the work of James Binnion. It is 14k palladium white gold and sterling silver Photo SHOULD have been credited to its owner, or not been used

Oh, and Chinobi - thanks for all those links - looking into them now, and looking into the Mokume Gane method. I live just outside of Las Vegas, in a cool little desert town called Blue Diamond. Anybody else around here? Spruce

Awesome! Thanks for the replies guys - going to read through those books and see what I can find out... I have an idea of what I would like to create - just have to see if I can figure out how to make it happen. One of the features I would like is to have a pattern welded/Damascus ring, with something set in it - so what are my options for pattern welded, which won't react with skin? Thomas Powers - you mention silver lined, pattern welded rings can be done - do you have any more information on it? If I can't figure that one out, then I will probably switch to silver and see what I can create. Thanks again, Spruce

Hey All, Newbie blacksmith here, who is getting married at the end of November. Very psyched - my wife to be is awesome! Both of us are of the build it, not buy it, persuasion - she's making her wedding dress, and I was wondering if it's possible to blacksmith some cool wedding rings... I've done quite a bit of googling around and reading, but haven't found a ton of info on things quite as small and delicate as rings. So, has anybody out there made any jewelry? Specifically rings? Or can anyone recommend any books or other sources of info? Also, what metals can be used? I know you could make a ring out of just about anything, but some metals tend to stain the skin and tarnish - any advice? And does anyone have pictures of some self-made jewelry? Thanks in advance, Spruce