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I Forge Iron

GregDP

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Everything posted by GregDP

  1. I like to use a ballpeen hammer to start with the stock held in the vice. It creates more of a mushroom. This was done in a single heat to give you an idea. This took a few.
  2. I doubt there is any real iron work to be seen, but I've always wanted to visit Lafitte's Blacksmith Shop. Pierre Lafitte ran a big easy blacksmith shop that was the legitimate front of the Lafitte brothers pirating enterprise.
  3. That's a good point I didn't consider. I am unsure how best to use or what would make a good mop. I have an idea, but do you mind elaborating or posting a picture?
  4. I'm long winded. I'd rather say too much than too little.. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but the more important things I'll emphasize in bold Nothing can replace learning how to manage a coal fire in person from someone of experience. That said some folks may not have that opportunity. When I started using coal in my forge I wasted a lot of time, energy and fuel. I've learned things from trial and error, but even more from places like this. Proper fire management is one of the most basic skills anyone wanting to learn blacksmithing should know. I’ve had to teach myself most of these skills but I’ve by no means done it without the advice of others. It's not terribly complicated, and it may be common sense to many people. I've always been a visual learner and a little dense so I'm doing this the way I'd have liked to have seen it presented to me. I haven't seen a good step-by-step pictorial on such a simple subject so hopefully it'll be helpful. Perhaps it'll serves as a jumping off point for those just beginning and a nudge in the right direction to those struggling. As a point of reference, not a suggestion: my fire pot is about 14"x10" and just over 3" deep. Some ideas for lighting the fire are newspaper, drier lent, dried sticks, chopped kindling, natural charcoal, wood shavings, pine cones, birch bark and dried leaves. (anything flammable and lightweight can be sent aloft while on fire, always be aware) I don't see a need to buy commercial fire-starters, but if you're somewhere urban or in the midst of a winter-wonderland they're an option.. I’ve tried several ways to start a fire. My favorite method is simply a sheet of news paper and charcoal. They produce a clean fire quickly. Building a separate wood fire to steal live coals from before the work day starts isn't a bad idea and the chard wood can be used to start your next fire easily. I don't recommend using accelerants because they're misleading. It's a waste of time to start a fire only to realize that the only thing burning was lighter fluid and it's gone out before anything else was lit. Here you can see a close up of coal, coke, and charcoal (made of bamboo) respectively. Not all coal is the same and I will not go into the different types, but this is a bituminous coal that was bought locally from an unknown vein. It had both large chunks and lots of fines. Large chunks can be placed on or near a fire and they'll break up easily as they heat. Fines can be lightly moistened to form a slurry mixed with slightly coked coal it'll heat up and bond together to form a brittle coke less suited for use at a later time. I prefer to do this at the beginning of a day not the end. When using an electric blower controlling the air flow is helpful. I use a shop vac directed to a T fitting. On the side of the fitting, opposite from the opening directed toward the forge, I’ve fitted a ball valve to allow excess air to be channelled to a side draft style hood/chimney. Additional air can be vented from the ash dump by sliding it open a bit. An open ash dump may also provide enough draft alone to allow a coal fire to coke up. Before a new day’s hearth can be lit: One must sift the ashes, removing occasional bits of clinker. I toss the coke into an empty bucket and more questionable sifted shovels go into a bucket of water. (<-This tip was actualy given by ThomasPowers) The coke floats, and leftover ash, clinker or coal sinks. Use a dust mask if you value your lungs. I first make a ring of coke at the bottom of the firepot. Some charcoal is present. A little more charcoal is added. Charcoal or dried wood tender will ignite much easier than coke/coal. If wood is used do so sparingly. I don’t know that you can’t weld in a fire with burning wood, but I do know it takes up hearth space and doesn’t burn as hot as the coked coal will. A single sheet of newspaper is lit and placed in the center of the hearth. Many people will use several of paper or they ball up coke/coal fines into many sheets of paper. If you've had trouble try it; this is what works for me. Some charcoal is quickly added while the air supply is on very low. Just enough to catch fire before the paper burns out. The kindling or charcoal only needs to burn long enough for the coke to catch. Coal is more difficult to ignite than coke. If building your first fire use more kindling and expect to wait a little while before forging so the coal can coke. The key from here is not suffocating the fire. The blower is still on but you may find too much air causes smouldering kindling that won’t catch. Once again charcoal or even charred wood is much more forgiving. This bamboo charcoal burns hot but quickly. I use it to supplement my coal more than primary forging, so I added more than necessary. I wouldn't use as much wood kindling. Some coked coal is added. When you are sure the coke has caught pile more on. The blower is blowing lightly. If you used kindling you can even carefully pull out any burning wood and seal it in an airtight container, or extinguish it some other way. This will make for an easier fire next time. Remember that floating coke, now is a perfect time to layer it on. This will buy the coal a little time to cook. You may increase the air some, but you don’t need a lot of air yet, but you can increase it enough to keep things going. Pile your wet coal around the center of the hearth/firepot. I snapped this picture right after the wet coke lit, just before cutting the blower off. A handful of mostly uncoked wet coal from the bottom of the water bucket was then placed on top. Then a small scoop of wet coal was added. (This picture didn’t turn out well and I failed to notice at the time.) The coal has heated up around the hearth and begun to melt and stick together as it’s coking. You can make a small entrance with your rake. Within this cave you’ll be able to keep an eye on your steel and see the color of it while still surrounding it with heat from almost every direction. The fire pot is about 3 inches deep and the mound is at least 5-6 inches above the forge table. Note – the fire is about at welding temperature. This is the fire after welding. You can see it’s beginning to burn hollow– there isn’t enough burning coke inside the cave. While enough fuel is present inside this cave to work, use less air and water to allow coking to catch up. A hollow fire is a result of not enough coal coking because you’re keeping it too wet, or too much air being introduced. This will cool your steel and create scale. I use a ladle that’s easily held with my tongs to avoid steam. I can’t tell you when exactly you need to sprinkle the fire and surrounding coal with water, but the idea is to keep the fire from migrating out of the firepot. Or whenever you see large sooty flames from green coal. If the perimeter of the firepot becomes well coked it may need to be watered until it’s time to be slid inwards. Occasionally, after the blower is stopped, the coking coal atop the fire will ignite. Then go out as soon as the blower is cut on again. For this type of fire that is a good sign to add more coal to coke. I assume this happens because the burning coke just below the top of the mound is consuming excess atmosphere from around the fire and the coal on the top of the mound is coked well enough to require lots of oxigen to stay ignited. Heat cokes coal. Coal will burn, and it’ll stay aflame simply from atmospheric air. Coke needs more air introduced or blown towards it to stay lit. I know of no reason to burn coal other than to create a supply of coke and help maintain the shape of certain types of fire. This sort of fire when well maintained can provide an excess of coked coal, which is a good thing as you explore other types of fires. It’s time to sprinkle some water on the fire. After a little water it's time to add more fuel. If heat becomes a problem, then clinker build up could be the source. Clinker can be prevented from blocking the air orifice by firepot design, installed clinker breakers or simply by pulling it all out in one large sticky clump with your fire rake. To the left you can see clinker mixed with flux from lots of welding. The middle and right are two different types of clinker from separate coal sources. This is just one style of fire; I’ve found a cave style fire like this useful to heat several inches of steel. To give you an idea: In this particular fire I forged and welded a small heart shaped hook out of about 6" of half-inch square bar and a 12" knife with a seven-inch blade. If you're just getting into blacksmithing I highly recommend "The Backyard Blacksmith" by Lorelei Sims, that is were I was introduced to this type of fire. I am by no means an expert. I'm presenting this as an educational post. But it's also a chance for me to find out from the rest of you how I may improve, or any misconceptions I may have. Working odd bends and unusual shapes or sizes without destroying a coal fire is still a challenge for me. It’s easier in a well coked open fire. Coke has to be held in place with a rake when steel is inserted or removed. Often it'll still have to be raked back or more added. Then time must be spent waiting for the fire to get back up to temperature if glowing coke is displaced. It's just something you have to get a feel for with experience. These days one may never even use a coal forge. To me it's an intrinsic part of the blacksmith experience worth at least being familiar with and at times even more practical than some modern heat sources.
  5. Would a vertical slit or two in the handle save your joints or is that a pipe dream?
  6. I've been following this for a bit and just wanted to share what I felt my biggest mistake has been and how I've striven to over come it: Being in a hurry to make something. Take time to make nothing, that doesn't mean just smack around a piece of steel. But make a few pieces of 3/4" square into 1/2" round with a four inch taper or something similar. You could make a half dozen steak turners in an afternoon with a single taper and a couple twist but you'd spend a quarter of that time applying oil and admiring your own handy work. When you light up the forge to make something; first make a few nothings to warm up and toss them over to the side. They'll be there when you're ready to make something a bit bigger.
  7. Not that vinegar is real expensive but you can concentrate it or just remove all that iron oxide in a simple crock pot still. Cut it on and walk away from it a gallon at a time.
  8. I made my forced-air side-draft hood with some stuff I had laying around the shop. An old portaband box, a bean can, and a section of 1 inch pipe. I wrapped the 8 inch bean can with 1 inch fiber blanket and it acts as a step with 10 inch pipe slid over it. The chimney is just barely taller that the garage door opening, much lower than the roof so it's not tall enough for the smoke to dissipate completely from the surrounding area. But it's plenty to keep my shop from filling with smoke. It even draws with out the blower once the air is hot enough and moving. Hope this inspires some ideas.
  9. These young men show real coordination and team work that reflects their practice and they certainly deserve recognition for it. I know this sort of thing isn't really new. This is just one example of efficient hand forging technique. But craftsmanship becoming hip is an idea I think is good for the future and worth promoting. Great demo to all those involved, and thanks for the pictures/video.
  10. As you said everyone is different. If you're working in someone else's shop ask them. To be polite and safe when I'm working with or around other people I prefer my working area, the triangle between vise, forge and anvil to be free of casual observers. I announce when I'm moving hot metal out of the forge anywhere. Do not replace any tools that may be hot from use, like tongs, until they've cooled. Always place hot metal to cool somewhere well out of the way and preferably in a designated area. Folks should always assume everything could be hot, but it's a lesson not everyone's learned. Learn the diffidence between hot working tools and cold working tools, if in doubt ask. Seems like you already have the right mindset! Welcome and I hope you have fun learning the craft! You may meet some folks here that are near by if you include your location in your profile and that's probably the best way to learn the ropes in your area.
  11. You and I both, good luck! Knowing now that coal isn't really necessary for any additional heat retention. I installed a small cross section to my tuyere and kept the fire going most of the day almost exclusively with the coke fines I sifted through from my ash dump. Worked out much better than I could have hoped with a little kindling mixed in when ever I was going to be away for a bit. I had a lot less trouble using only coked coal. Thanks for the help - Greg.
  12. That makes me appreciate my daily dose of labor a bit more Sweany. I'm darn spoiled. Folks doing all they can just to eat. Yes Sir Mr Hale. Here is my coal: I've been able to find some good advice on coking the coal dust by making a slurry. Here is my current favorite forge: Coke fines and ash: My question stems from trying to decide if I should install a air blast director/clinker breaker or just keep letting coke fines pile up with out knowing the most efficient way to use them. Right now I don't have a much of problem with clinker because of the size of my air inlet. I'd rather not do much more work than necessary, but a little work now to save some head ache in the future.. well that I don't mind. On a somewhat related note.. As I was at the forge yesterday I attempted to see what effect letting the coal flame up freely outside of the hearth had on the atmosphere within the firepot. Something I've tried to note in the past but haven't drawn any definitive conclusions.. my assumptions tend to give me little faith in my own observations.. Trying to fully understand the anatomy of a fire is a step I want to have down before trying any more complex welds. Any advice is helpful, because I probably don't even know what to ask - Thanks
  13. Does cokeing coal, insulate and radiate heat? Or just radiate heat? I've made some observations concerning fuel efficiency working with coal, coke, hard and soft firebricks. What are your observations and opinions? For instance, the color of the fire is an observation of something a little more complex. UV, infrared reflection, and insulation are nothing new to gas forges, and the subject has been broached on solid fuels before. But coal is rather inexpensive compared to gas and much easier to get up to temperature so it doesn't seem to be a major concern for most folks. I imagine if there was something useful to know on the subject, it would be implemented in some sort of industrial setting, but Google has kinda let me down in such a quest for knowledge.. and to be honest my head already hurts and I need to go mindless hit something with a hammer to alleviate the swelling.. Thanks - Greg
  14. I was rather nervous the first time I cut into a 20lb cylinder, I did it almost exactly how you described. I had a friend around in case things went south and to help out. I vented the tank for a few hours, slowly cut the valve first and then filled with water and flushed before cutting the bottle with an angle grinder. Brass doesn't noticeably spark but can heat up from friction, in retrospect it was probably an unnecessary risk. But I'm here to tell the tale and the job is over so it can be done. If I remember correctly the 20lb'ers are only about an 1/8" thick I wouldn't expect too much more if any from the larger tanks.
  15. I've always appreciated all the great pictures posted from class time. Each one is worth a thousand words to me, and I like words!
  16. I've never welded chain, but when a weld doesn't take I only blame two things, heat or scale. How fast can you pick up your wire brush and then hammer? I'd imagine welding small bits might be easier on a large hot piece of metal too.. but that's a dance I'm not personally confident it pulling off.
  17. This knife was a forging exorcise for me. I don't normally draw out my ideas and then try to forge them. I tend to plan at the anvil.. not suggested, but I do. In the past I've forged a similar blade out in only one or two forging sessions. It didn't make the cut so to speak and when it broke I noticed a very large grain structure toward the very center. This blade took much longer but I spent a lot of time trying to avoid stressing the steel or creating an uneven/large grain structure. I did this by very slowly heating and cooling the steel during each forging session. I assumed when working with an unknown steel this was helpful. Trying to avoid decarbonization was been a main concern, but I hadn't considered what effect carbonization could have. (I've research both a bit more and found it takes several hours in an oxidizing atmosphere to remove all the carbon from 0.01", but outside of pack case hardening I haven't found out how much carbon could be absorbed steel if any. I'm under the assumption it's nominal) I think I've been a little too careful honestly as when referencing Machine Tool Practices 6thEdition it simply advises normalizing overheated steel once and then reheating to the correct quenching temperature and hardening. But perhaps it doesn't accounting for any reshaping done at those temperatures. I broke up my annealed knife into several pieces and will polish and etch it later to get a better idea, but I feel better about things seeing what appears to me to be a fine (ferrite and pearlite?) grain structure I'll use these pieces to test for the next tool of similar shape. One book I'm referencing list the lower critical temperature in simple carbon steel as 1330f, the other states 1400f. The upper critical range for 0.00 "steel" is listed as about 1680f decreasing by about 33f every .1% of carbon until about 0.7% they both vary. Heat treating rules of thumb and suggestions are made in both books for different steels and they again vary just a bit but the lower the carbon content the higher the suggested temperature Practically speaking as a guy playing blacksmith in a world of metallurgist.. from my research into the most basic carbon steel this means if a properly normalized tool of an unknown carbon level is to be heat treated it should be done at the lowest possible temperature. The goal is to heat the steel to the critical point and hold it there just long enough to allow the complete transformation to austenite. How far above the critical point the steel is heated seems to be a factor of how much it has a chance to cool before getting to the quenching medium to produce martensite. The higher it must be heated above the lower critical transformation the grain grows changing the durability. A change that tempering doesn't correct. If the desired results aren't achieved in air, oil or water then the temperature should be increased incrementally.. or until I break something :blink: At least thats my plan next time, accept I'll bypass the air. I'm rather sure these aren't near the 1060 that I'd hope, but I'm seldom really sure on anything :lol: I would like to know I'm on the right track by giving ya'll a chance to correct me. I've delved into this stuff before. But it's kinda hard for me to retain the dry reading as a whole. So I just catch bits and pieces of terminology. Writing helps me retain the knowledge and hopefully help out some folks out who're also struggling with the 'ites. Maybe I'll get around to committing those cubes to memory one day. Thanks for the advice Dave and James.
  18. Hmm welp I suppose I should say I've read some stuff on the subject. But the three brain cells between my ears just haven't agreed on what I may be doing right or wrong. I don't know how exactly to treat this mysterious stuff. I've read it's often somewhere between 1045 and 1065. Odds are just as good I've burned carbon off than added any. I was a little worried something could've gone wrong I decided to see how stressed the blank could have been. I've done this before and I've been lucky at times, but I'm still trying to figure somethings out. I keep a magnet handy and I'm getting better about fire management. Maybe someone else has used those squiggly clips for knives? I've broke 'em, bent 'em, burt 'em, hardened and tempered even the crooked ones. Most of it was on the fly. I don't keep very good records. I'm still trying to develop more organized forging habits. Something I'm unclear on his how extended time in different types of heat effects different types of alloys. Should I be worried come heat treat time For instance this thread a while back, and a few others have just pointed me toward a few conflicting conclusions. I apologizes for being so long winded.. I just keep finding words :huh:
  19. My wife keeps buying cooking spray, and it keeps disappearing as I teach myself to weld cleaner and better. The stuff at the welding supply place may work marginally better. I used it once upon a time, but I can't tell the difference and at a dollar a can a few miles from the house hard to beat the value. I know flux-core machines are common starter rigs, heck it's all I can afford to run. But if your time is worth money, you may want to invest in some gas shielding and multiple grinders (one with a stone and one with a flap wheel).
  20. I dunno, at the risk of giving away my ideas.. shoot, I've borrowed so many I aught to. I haven't got around to heat treating any of mine yet, but I use them to warm up. I make little razor blades and a couple other tools like you might find in one of those cheap-o wood carving sets. They'll probably be trash even if I ever get around to heat treating and putting a handle on 'em.. I annealed them in a bond fire pulled them apart, straighten and cold cut 'em to size on an axe.. Have fun, and remember even if it moves cold, I'd heat it up to anneal it and treat it like any other knife if I were you. I save everything I can though, metal especially.. these days I guess thats a medical condition. My grandfather would've called it being poor though. I'd like to try some box Damascus with them if I ever get my hands on a press.
  21. I don't really have a horse in this race so I should probably keep my mouth shut per norm... But I've got a few pieces of what a friend gave me, he told me they were 4140. Someone told him that too where he got them. I found this thread informative given some folks experiences... but if everyone had this mentality would we have developed as much as we have over the past 4000 years? Following a recipe or making a square cut can be done as well as a few factors allow, and seems, material, tools and experience are the only important ones.. Get those about right and you can probably get darn good results.. at least thats what I pulled from this thread.. by the way, isn't oil used because of it's viscosity and low boiling point? I know you can buy quenching oil.. I guess thats the baseline, but with so many 'little factors' already mentioned, it's good to know what results some folks are getting and how. Thanks
  22. Welp, the theory craft came from me trying to refine the grain structure. These 3/E scrap clips aren't super high carbon, and are a pain to straighten out at anything other than a glowing yellow. (I've been using the step of the anvil to hold one end in place while doing this so it only takes a few heats, I'm going to try the leg vise next time I do a batch since it's new to me.) So I start off working these too hot. Steve Sells pretty much sums it up better than me. I can't really tell a few hundred degrees one way or the other so I guesstimate and just cycle it through the color spectrum best I can. When I got my gas forge going it was coincidently right about when I was running out of coal. So I gave it a few heats a bit too hot after I'd already been reducing my working temperatures. Since I needed to go through the process again, I figured what could it hurt. No one should be risking their neck with this blade, if it's not all it could be then it's a "decorative" piece. In my experience these clips don't harden well enough in oil, but do well in brine. Would a whole percent of carbon on just a few hairs of the blade increase the likelihood of nicks? A proper heat treat is a subjective thing I suppose biased on how the tool is used. I just want something someone can thwack a chuck of hard wood with, bow the blade while trying to unstick it and still have a noticeable edge and straight blade... At least thats my stress testing minimum, it's something a $20 mass produced machete often can't do.. and don't get me started on those knives and swords you normally find at flea markets.. eh I digress.. So I guess you're saying if done correctly in the right part of the fire at the right temperatures it could have some effect, while not necessarily positive? I like making knives, but they're kinda practice for me. I prefer the hammer swinging to all the work that goes into making a quality knife. That said I've been collecting old files and have a nice pile I plan to work on once I feel I'm ready to make something sharp out of what I consider good steel if not exactly known. I know working junk steel is full of head aches, but at least you tend to remember a mistake if you ruin several hours of work. If someone wants something custom made (a lot of folks do.. until I tell them how much it cost to pull me away from my personal projects) they can pay double material cost and only a few bucks for labor. Then I'm more than happy to spend the money on some high grade steel and a thermometer. As long as I get it right the first time I might actually end up being compensated for my time. <_< Thanks for the quick reply Thomas.
  23. Something I’ve tried on a recent blade is soaking it at a welding temperature in a coal fire near final shape; letting it cool very slowly in the fire to decrease the likely hood of scale forming. Once at a temperature where it won’t scale I removed it and quickly wrap it in ceramic blanket to let it cool slowly. I’ve done this twice and the second time I didn’t heat it up as much or soak it as long. I’ll normalize again at least twice before heat treating. The idea behind this process is to let the edge absorb some extra carbon from the fire, while not burning carbon off or letting it flake off. Most of the surface carbonized steel will be ground off, but the edge should stay about where it is if the shaping goes as planed. This will theoretically provide the edge with a little more staying power. I’ve read a lot of different idea’s, opinions and facts about the heat treating process and some of it is very complicated, and some of it seems like folklore. But this is something I’ve come up with that seems sound to me mixing some ideas. If I was working with a known steel then I’d invest in a thermometer and follow the instructions given by folks in lab coats. But people have been making darn good tools for a very long time through trial, error, and a keen eye. I've worked these darn e-clips in the past so I've got some ground to stand on when I'm through for comparison when I'm through, but I could just have a few differently manufactured clips. I'd just like some opinions. I'm kinda just experimenting, but does the logic seem sound to you folks who've paid your dues? Edit, sorry, this probably should have been posted over in the bladesmithing section.. I'm just used to viewing the blacksmithing forums. Apologies!
  24. I believe a lot of folks make their drifts out of mild steel. While I haven't I'd have to say as long as it's very smooth, you shouldn't be waisting your time. I have a hard time being certain of spark test, though it usually gives me an idea. Like Macbruce suggested I'd cut off a wafer heat it up to non magnetic and toss it in a bucket of cool water. Forget it for a few, and when you check on it, it'll be either intact, cracked or in a few pieces. That should tell you where to go from there. Just my two cents, I'm probably lazier than Macbruce :P
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