WorkShopRat

hay all I'm in oz if a broken down power hammer was for sale it would go for $2000 to $3000 or more then to dis mantle clean repair have re engineered and possibly recast would blow out the cost hence the reason I want to build my own oh and probably a day or two for making gards.

Im right there with ya on that. Besides I have more time than I have money so thats the way im gona go. Part of the challange is to see just how cheap you can get it done. anyone can throw money at it but thats just not much of a challange.

Ok so your in oz? thats either kansas or not in kansas anymore toto. so is it kansas or ozarks? I am in springfield mo and it would be great to have someone close to share ideas with. maybee even do a hammer build and do two machine side by side.

so where ya at?

So how many hours if you don't mind sharing? I posted what I thought it would take me and a lot of folks seem to think that is ridiculous. I am not much of a fabricator and really not much of an estimator. I go one step forward then two steps back

I would estimate about 40 hrs. that is assuming you already have all your material in front of you rounded up. that should be enough time to make this a lesuirely fun project. this would give enough time as not to rush the critical part of lining and cut fit. Slowing down and taking the time to cut something accuratly and properly right the first time save hours of cutting grinding and refitting. not to mention it reduces your scrap pile inventory. start square and stay square. if you get out of line the problem gets exponetionally worse as you keep building. it actually may take me a bit more than this as I am pretty anal even about small details. it pays off though as in the end my stuff does work.

Also this gives the proper amount of time for mixing of whiskey and coke (aka liquid inspiration) and staring out the garage door while enjoying a beutiful day and a good song on the radio. and besides my dog need some attention every once in a while to lol.

that is just my estimate and others may work much faster than me. thats ok as this is just a fun hobby project designed to eat up free time and save me from the bordom of having to sit on the couch and watch tv or something like that.

if thats the case then why do any of this? i mean why stand at an anvil and a hot piece of steel and pound out a knife? why not just run down to knives r us and buy a knife. kind of easier if i need to cut something right now isnt it???

ya see the project is the entertainment. if i wanted easy i wouldnt do any of this et all. there is a pride in a project. I am not purposly going to go looking for materials to do this. thats a looser. however i keep my eye out and it comes my way. I am in the demolition industry so I am privilaged to many things others can only wish they could get. and i get paid to take it. as far as discourage me. well thats just not possible as i dont get defeated easily.

I live in springfield mo. My dad is still in lakewood and has a business yard in arvada i could store it. im gona check on my lead today and will balance that against cost. i really would like to make a trip back to denver. Its always nice to come home. there is no better place than the front range in spring. just something about that nice fresh DRY mountian air comming down from the mountain.
Its hard to explain till ya live somewhere like springfield mo where at times it seems you can wring the air out and it smells stagnent.

You're thinking of ''Johnson's Corner'', one of America's greatest destinations, second only to ''wall Drug'' in SD.lol. Oh, and the cinnamon rolls
are way overrated too. About 15 min from here..........
The axle(s) are in Greeley at Andersons Salvage, I'd be happy to show you right to em...........mb

Great i only spent 30 years of my life there and now i cant remeber xxxx. im either getting to xxxx old my mind is failing or i need to get back more. anyhow i wonder if a dodge caravan can haul a rr axle lol. Im supprised theres anyone in greely with rr axles. I wonder how they got them.

I really dont want to hear anyone else mention the railcar axle unless they can back it up with directions on how to LEAGALLY purchase this item ok? Sorry hate to get pissy bout that but its one thing to say it and another to back it up.

course that is just the burlington northern and is the only RR here in spfd. there may be others that sell this but doubtfull as there is a huge liability issue and the RRs want to make sure these items are destroyed. again please dont mention it unless you know for sure where to purchase this leagally please.

I came across some axles when I was building a hammer a few months back. They were in the useables section of a large scrap yard.
Too hard to deal with, too much drop........
I knew of some guys who thought they'ed struck it rich and filled their truck with tie plates. Took em' to the scrap dealer and went right to the hooscow. Nobody told em that the RR and the scrappers are pretty cozy.........

ok duh just remebered johnstown is between ft collins and denver. and the famous johnstown corner truck stop with the best cinamon rolls ever.

400 Hours???? Now I've built a few hammers (not to mention the first 100 KA hammers) so I kinda know what I'm doing, but 400 hours? If I had the materials marshaled and a plan, I can't imagine it taking more than 40 hours! Especially for the simple designs we're talking about here.

For a first time hammer, I wouldn't consider more than a 40 pound hammer. As size increases, stresses go up exponentially.

i think there are homebuilt aircraft that have a 400 hr build time. yea its another addiction

I came across some axles when I was building a hammer a few months back. They were in the useables section of a large scrap yard.
Too hard to deal with, too much drop........
I knew of some guys who thought they'ed struck it rich and filled their truck with tie plates. Took em' to the scrap dealer and went right to the hooscow. Nobody told em that the RR and the scrappers are pretty cozy.........

what salvage yard was that and do you know if they still have any? please refresh my memory where johnstown is. i know its in the mountians. didnt they have a narrow gauge rr there or am i thinking of goergetown? I grew up in lakewood and moved from there in ot 3. if there is a junkyard that has them i could have my dad pick one up and hold it for me.

Oh by the way I can take a joke and yes the railcar axle refference was funny. I took it for sarcasm right off as me and my brother pull the same shtuff on one another. Goood one dude.

one thing im starting to understand is a railcar axle may make a good anvil lol

i got a lead on some large rounds from a machine shop supply. dont know why i didnt think of it as i have been there many times to buy tooling for my 1912 american tool works lathe 18 inch swing.

400 hrs! If your time is worth a paltry $20 an hr, It would be worth $8,000, plus matieral .......I don't see the incentive...........mb

yea but where can i get a job for $20 an hour staring out the shop door drinking whiskey and coke? If you know where then im there man lol

Ok i have time in abundance. I dont have money. no money= sol or time spent.

Ok heres the lowdown on rail yards. Question: does anyone know who the largest scrap corporation in the united states is? Answer: Burlington northern railroad. so you see they do NOT sell scrap to the public. I dont have to call and look like an idiot as I know this for a fact. I am friends with the railmaster here in spfd mo. Railroads scrap all thier own stuff. It is ALL under contract to go to a salvage yard. The salvage yard wants the railroad to not sell to the public as they have already purchased a contract to buy all the railroad has. therefore the railroad is under contract and obligated by contract to not sell to the public. Ok when the railroad takes an axle set off and sends it to the salvage yards they are stamped right on them NOT TO BE SOLD!!!! Why??? Because they are CONDEMED and are to be made sure as to be destroyed and no possible way that they will resurface on another train as per contract.

There very well may be someone that had gotten a chunk of railcar axle but it is my strong thought that if they did it was aquired under less than honest conditions. at least in the united states anyhow.

Also I strongly urge anyone that thinks they can walk a rail line and pick up spikes to forge and or pick up tie plates or pick up chunks of rail and they are free for the taking strongly think about what they are doing. By doing this it is very possible to end up into some serious shiat. the railroad WILL NOT let you up either as they are in the scrap business and take it VERY VERY seriosly.

I really dont want to hear anyone else mention the railcar axle unless they can back it up with directions on how to LEAGALLY purchase this item ok? Sorry hate to get pissy bout that but its one thing to say it and another to back it up.

course that is just the burlington northern and is the only RR here in spfd. there may be others that sell this but doubtfull as there is a huge liability issue and the RRs want to make sure these items are destroyed. again please dont mention it unless you know for sure where to purchase this leagally please.

The time you spend building a hammer ? probably take 300- 400 hrs for me to build

Yea it would probably take me about that long. mainly cause listning to the radio and staring out the garage door to a excellent view of my area and drinking some whiskey and sody pop mix get in the way of progress.

a rail car Boigie axial should be bout that if you have a loco works handy probably have a mountain of em a tractor axial should be hardened may be truck axial or perhaps drive shaft from a large gearbox

Ok theres the rail car axle reference again. How does one go about getting a rail car axle from the rail yard? I would think thats gona be pretty hard as most rail roads really dont deal open to the public like that. its not like ya just walk in off the street and say hey could i get a rail car axle and they say sure back over here and well load it up. most everything in a railraod as far as salvage is already under a salvage contract and hard as hell to get. Im sure there is a way but hell if i know.

Heres what a properly built appalachian hammer can do..Though to buy the ammount of steel in this hammer would be expensive..Thats why our appalachian hammer has a hollow filled anvil..We havent been able to find an appropriate piece of steel for a proper anvil yet.. Ill replace the hollow filled one when I do..

yea i seen that one and its pretty impressive. I thought your anvil was a welded together assy of large flat stock? anyhow it sure runs good. It would be nice to have a little beter vid of the workings of it and not so much of working it lol. anyhow that one sure dosent suffer that junk yard jump lol.

I was thinking aobut it today and if i did the 12 inch pipe filled with cast anvil i could use slugs of old axle shafts and whatever large pieces of ? so i didnt have to pour as much cast. I am thinking that is gona be real doable and far cheaper than buying a 12 inch dia round.

Hey could you post some good pics of you ram ways? i know how much a ram weighs and its about 150 bahhhh lbs lol no i mean ram ways lol

I totally agree a proper one is best but some of us are a little unlucky to not have hammer resources available I have only ever seen one pneumatic 135 kg 170 blows per minute P.O.A. back in 98 haven't seen one since think building one is a little quicker.

Ok here is proof that this is not rocket sience. Honestly I would even be happy with this hammer. It would be even coolor in the fact it is water powered. How cool is that? them old times knew far more than we know i bet.

I did some figuring today and for a 10 - 1 ratio i would need a 1000 lbs anvil for a 100 lbs hammer. ok so if my anvil was 30 inches tall i would need a 12.25 inch dia round piece of steel to make the 1000lbs. man that aint gona be easy to find around here. for a larger town you would be supprised how things are hard to get in spfd mo. then there gona want way to much for it.

I had a thought I know where there is a shop that does flame and plasma cutting. they cut lots of stuff 1 inch thick. if i could get a good price on thier drop pile and i could find a bunch of 12 inch round disks 1 inch thick then why couldnt i weld them up in a stack?
I can even machine a bevel in the edges on my lathe for this purpose.

Lots of welding though and may be cheaper to get a drop than but the darn rod. maybee not

the other thought is to take a 12 inch round pipe and weld a plate on the bottom. keep puring in molten cast iron in in small batches till is full. machine off the end and then cap with a plate. it should work and junk cast to melt is east to get. fuel dosent cost much either as I burn waste oil.

i am sure a solution will present itself.

I'm also in the planning and research stage of a power hammer build. I'm going to build a Appalachian style power hammer with a 1hp rockwell motor. I'm probably gonna try for about a 50 lb ram ( or tup ) and as big of an anvil as I can afford. My local steel yard has hundreds of drops from large stock, and I saw plenty of 30" long or so 6" round that would make a perfect anvil base. I'm sure you can find appropriate stuff at the scrap yard too.
RR track is a pretty ubiquitous thing at metal working shops around here. I use a piece as a small anvil, and we've got another piece laying around the shop too. Ask around, I'm sure you can find some.
For the ram on mine I plan to use something like 2" solid cold rolled. For the guides I'll probably fabricate a heavy box of something like 1/2 by 3, and use UMHW plates as bearings. I plan on taking lots of pictures of the build and I'll post them up if there's interest.

umhw? you mean the slippy white plastic material? it thought that might work pretty good also. I dont know anyone around here that would have those kind of drops. may have to make a trip to kansas city for such a thing. 6" round sounds good. man that must be heavy.
I was hoping i could find something that could be had cheap and I would be doing good by recycling. whats something like that set you back?

The single most important thing you need to do before you start this build is learn what a
power hammer can do and what it cannot do.
It will be very hard to build something that you are not familar with. With that said
I will be at Sedila next month. Sid and I will be doing some demos on Little Giant hammers.
We will try to answer questions and show what a good hamer can do. Hope to see you at Bam.

Wow thats cool and i hope to see you guys at the BAM meet. I am thinking saturday will be the best day for me to go. I really dont think i could make it thursday or friday. anyhow I will definatly try to find you.

I guess i didnt explain what type of hammer i am wanting to build as was pointed out. Ok so im not sure the proper name for this type as they seem to be called junk yard hammers on the videos. anyhow it has a motor that runs a crankshaft which in turn rocks the large spring assy on top via a conecting rod. the rocking of the spring runs the ram up and down.

scrap yards here in springfield mo are a real pain and they wont let ya buy out of their piles. they really dont want ya on site as they dont want ya to see all the stolen scrap they have. they will tell you its cause of insurance reasons but really its cause they dont want you to see their stolen swag and they are very scared that you might be a informant or undercover officer. i dont know if you have been following the scrap theft problem here in springfield but it is savagly rampant. I even gave a speach to the city couincil monday on the subject and the need for new regulations.

"Tup" or "Ram" or "Head" refer to the moving part or working mass of material that is moved by the mechanical linkage/fluid power/gravity. A relatively small part of the machine called a "hammer". When you read about the weight of a power hammer i.e.: 25#, this is the part that folks are talking about. Many 25# hammers actually have a total weight of 900 to 1000 pounds. The part of the ram that strikes the work-piece is called the "die". Note that there is one die fixed to the tup and one to the anvil, optimally by a dovetail and wedge arrangement but bolts or welding are acceptable. The dies are best made of properly heat treated alloy steel.

When you see video of home made hammers jumping around that is indeed due to lack of mass, mostly missing mass in the anvil portion of the hammer. Best practice is to have a 20:1 anvil to tup weight ratio, thou 10:1 is minimally sufficient. Sometimes it's because of unbalanced mechanisms or machines that are not fastened down to the floor, but most of the time it's simply lack of mass.

If you are on a limited bandwidth connection, look for your information the old fashioned way. I strongly recommend the book "Pounding Out the Profits" by Douglas Freund. An outstanding primer on historic power hammers. It's out of print but if your local library hasn't fallen to budget cuts try to ILL.

Thanks for the excellent description. I am now armed with the proper terminology to discuss this inteigently. I will look for that book as I read all I can. i have several of the lindsey catalog books already. I am planning on attending the show/meet in sedalia missouri next month. should be real fun. I am still looking for a good anvil as used good ones are hard to find. most are used up junk. One of the reasons to know what types of material to build with is so that I can now start keeping an eye out for material to build with. I am planning on building with as much used salvage as i can as thats all i really have to work with as money is a problem since the market crash.

Does anyone have any ideas where I could get a solid mass round or square stock in small quantity and preferable salved and cheap to form the anvil? I really like the rail car axle idea but im just not sure thats going to be easy to find.

Are you wanting to make an air hammer or a mechanical hammer? Yes, tup is the ram. "Hammer" is not sufficiently descriptive as it's often used to refer to the whole machine. Guides come in all varieties from simple tube-in-tube to sophisticated "V" ways.

Nakedanvil thanks for the info. Ok so tup is the whole ram assembly with the hammer bolted to it right? maybee im not understanding the terminology as I am assuming the hammer is the part that is bolted tot the ram and actually strikes the metal. so if i get it right tup is the combination of these two pieces right? sorry if im overcomplicating this as im just trying to acuratly understand.

I am trying to build a mechanical hammer. Like i say to me its more in line with the vintage way of doing things and i like the older nostalgic ways. I have plenty of air power and could esily go that way but would rather not.

Vways would be a litle more complicated than just a tube in tube type of way. I guess the next question should be just how accurate and tight (as in no slop) should a ram way be?

Kind of a general purpose machine. That helps a little. I'm a spare time/part time metal artist and I purchased my plans from David Robertson at Artistblacksmith.com. I did that to educate myself about the sizes and weights of a power hammer that he uses himself for artwork. It is a Kinyon style hammer of light to medium duty and you can alter the plans accordingly if you choose a heavier anvil (which I did). You will need an air compressor of substantial size. I posted the report of my build with 60+ pictures on the Metal Artist Forum. (Only because we already have kinyon build reports here on Iforgeiron) I would also encourage people to look at the hammer build reports in the archives here because more ideas are better. I post nearly all of my widget prototype tooling here that I use with the hammer for contribution because I'm not in the financial shape to donate funds directly. At least not yet. Good luck with your hammer build and when you do get it going on maybe you can throw us in some pictures. Regards, Spears.

I really want to stay away from air power if at all possible. not that air power is a problem but i think i would preffer a mechanical and motor type. just seems more inline with vintage methods. Im just kind of a fan of the old ways.

so how about tup weight as i am prety stymied on the meaning of it?

If that is true maybe you should be answering instead of asking?

Just saying....

Bob

bob im not trying to be a pain but i really dont want to buy a set of plans to just get the details of the ram ways. Besides I really want to see what others have done and get some comparisons. that way if i do decide to go the plan set way then i will know which one to buy. I am a pretty acomplished metal worker and am quite sure I can figure it out. I understand you have no way of knowing what my skill level is and I really dont care for the assumption that I know nothing. I decided to try and branch into the forging part of metalworking and yes I am not familiar with forging and the acronyms associated with that.

Hello Workshoprat,

Arftist answered those questions perfect and right to the point and you really can't get any cleaner than that. What might help in your pursuit of what you might be trying to do is inform the people of the forum of what your purpose is. Like if you've been making blades by hand hammering and your looking for something that can smash 3" thick stacks of metal. Or maybe you just want to make small leaf key chains and your wondering how little of a machine you can get away with. Read through the archives on this forum and read through the advertisements of commercial power hammers such as Big Blu and Anyang and eventually you will find exactly what will suit you. Good luck in your pursuits. Spears.

I am sure he did answer them fine and im not arguing. I Kind of want a general all purpose machine as im not sure what i will be making as projects ussually present themselves as tooling is acuired. mostly i will be making tooling and whatever kind of widget i might need. I dont really think i will be doing knives as i just dont get the knife thing but one never knows as i may catch the bug. i would like to try some axes though. not looking to make ornamental type things but more usefell items to actually be used. I dont know if that adequatly explains what i want to do. I dont know If I can expalin it.

as far as (tup) weight i know im a newbie and i dont know much about this. acronyms like tup really dont help me and need to be explained a little more as i have never heard that term. I understand hammer weight but what does the tup mean?
I did take the reply to the rail axle kind of condesending. A rail yard? yea like I hadent thought of that. The railroad dosent deal open to the public. they are in the scrap business themselves and salvage all their own equipment. when surplussed it is usually sold under a very large contract. It actually amazes me that this individual found one for and anvil. makes sense though for a perfect anvil. anyhow just wondering if there was a source that i hadent heard of or if the salvage yard he got it from maybee had the railroad contract for the scrap.

I am stuck in a location where all I can get is dial up. searching for information is a very long painstaking process for me as most sites are now so laden with photos that mean nothing and its barely all i can do with dialup. if i seem unwilling to reaserch its not that i dont want to its that i am doing all i can in the time i have avalible and it takes hours to weed through all the junk.

1. Solid though tube is being used by some, but like I said, solid.
2. No. Buy some plans. Plans are cheaper than re-work.
3. The only goof anvil is a solid anvil.
4. At a rail yard?
5. Hammer (tup) weight.

Soild is what I thought but like i say its hard to tell.

I am quite sure I can do this without buying plans and i really dont want to be stuck to a material bill called for in the plans. It really isnt rocket science and these are pretty simple machines.

Solid anvil makes sense

Has anyone bought such an item from a railyard and if so how does one go about that cause Im pretty sure they dont sell open to the public and they get pretty pissed when ya just take it.

Lastly What is (tup) weight?

I have been looking at making my own power hammer and have been watching many videos and reading as much as possible. All the home made hammers seem to suffer from the same thing. they all jump and buck and dance around making it hard to keep the work where you want it in the anvil as it is dancing around. I have even seen some that will about clean jump off of the floor. I think this is a result of a lack of base weight and should be easy to avoid by sheer mass. I do however have some questions

#1 is the ram solid or square tube?

#2 is there some good information on the ram way construction without having to buy some plan set?

#3 is the anvil solid or is it a tube with a heavy plate welded on it?

#4 I saw were one guy used a cut down rail road axle for a anvil. Where would one get some of this material?

# 5 the weight of the machine IE: 100 lbs hammer. Does that refer to the actuall weight of the hammer and ram set up or is that how much force the hammer will develope when struck?

Thanks in advance for any advice or help. I am sure I will have more questions to come.