reefera4m

What Thomas Powers said! Smaller is better, it is easier to concentrate the heat, easier to work around and won't waste nearly as much fuel. Mine is only about 22 inches in diameter but plenty big enough. Even if you plan on making large swords, a small forge will suffice. You can't effectively work the entire length of a sword even it you could heat the whole blade. I usually only worKl on 6" - 8" of steel at a time, get it hot hammer to shape and repeat or move the the next 6" - 8".

Very true. However walking along an abandoned railroad line and picking them up isn't. There are lots of place to find or acquire railroad spikes that aren't illegal. I've found them it abandoned mines, along abandoned track right-of-ways that have had the rails remove and along abandoned lines where the rails were still in place. In fact, I found quite a few along a rail line right-of-way that the railroad company gave to King County, WA. They removed the rails and then the County built a bike/wallking path about 10 miles long on this right-of -way. The didn't pick up a lot of the old spikes. I've also spoken to railroad employees who've told me that they leave new spikes along the tracks for future repairs and that these are illegal to take, but that this is not a common practice any more. They also told me that spikes that are obviously damaged and have been replaced can be taken as it is not worth their effort to pick them up for recycling. I stick to the 'abandoned ones'. Another thing, not all spikes are low carbon. Some, particulary more modern ones used in junctions, have a much high steel content. If you look into RR Spikes the usually have a set of letters or numbers stamped on them. There are websites that provide identification for some of these spikes as well as whether or not they are low carbon or higher carbon. Here is an example of a RR Spike knife by friend and well know master Bladesmith Lyle Brunckhorst: For more examples just 'Google RR Spike Knives' to learn more.

By the way, in case you don't read the attachment, the knife was NOT made from a kit. Each component was made by me, by hand. And the only things I purchased was some scrap brass for the bolster and a piece of brass tubing (from ACE) for the lanyard hole liner and the epoxy. (The brass pins are welding rod and because I just wanted one my welding store, Central Welding Supply gave me one!).

Chris, You are right on regarding pics with the outline. I did add photos when I created my primer for making a propane 'venturi style' forge and should have done it for this knife build. I just got too caught up in the process. I've found that, as you say, an outline with pics allows for better feedback. I've used such feedback not only make improvements in my forges, knives and other tools, but to improve the documents for further reference and for others to benefit from.

I like it! Looks very serviceable and something I'd love to carry to the rendezvous. By the way, how did you secure the tang in the antler?

If you take out the term 'RR Spike' and just refer to it as a 3/4" billet of low to medium carbon steel then you are forging a knife, mabye not a great one, but one very similiar to those of bygone eras and one that in FACT can be very servicable as a knife. One of my first was a skinner style and it helped skin an entire cow. The same lessons for forging low carbon steel generally apply to higher carbon steels. The hammering techniques are the same, as are the need for proper heat recognition, working steel at the right temperature, cold anvils, etc. If you forge all so-called 'knife steels' at the same temperature you'll still run into problems. Each type of steel has a proper forging temperature, proper normalizing temperature and hardening/quenching temperatures. You can screw up low carbon steel the same way you can high C steel but it won't cost you as much. And while I'll be the first to admit that working knife steels is more difficult that low/medium carbon steels, it is definitely easier if you learn the basic of forging first. I'd neve recommend learning to drag race in a top fuel dragster if there was a modified stock car available nor would I recommend learning to shoot pistols with a .50 cal S&W. :rolleyes:

I finally finished my 2nd knife. While I still have lots of room to improve I was encouraged by how it finally turned out. Steel - 5160 (leaf spring from 1978 Ford Pickup HD) Handles slabs - elk antler (thanks to my brother John) Bolster/guard, pins and lanyard hole - brass Edge Quenched Another photo showing the components pre-assembly - all hand made. Note - I sandblasted the tang so that the epoxy adhere better. I also created a document (in outline form) that details the process, tools and materials I used to make this knife. I'd intended to use this document as a primer for making a knife with 5160 and so I had it reviewed by several bladesmiths/knifemakers. Based on my experience and the feedback I received, it fits the bill quite well. If anyone is interested, I've attached the outline. Second Knife Build.doc

Bluedemon62, I'll provide a different perspective - start with railroad spikes - I did! First of all they are fairly easy to make yet they can turn out beautiful (just Google railroad spike knives and see for yourself!) Second, because they are a lower carbon steel they are easier to forge and a great way to learn how to forge and practice you hammer technique and heat management. Third, they are very inexpensive to acquire (I've found quite a few - even though they might not have been 'lost' . Fourth, starting out with more commonly accepted knife steel is darn difficult. The steel, even the common leaf spring steel (5160) is a bear to work. For example, it takes 5-10 times as much work to forge knife steel compared to RR spikes. And it takes more fuel to heat it to forging temperature (it takes me easily 5-10 times as much coal when I use my coal forge compared to RR Spikes and just about that much more propane with I use my propane forge) Fifth, it is much easier to grind and file to a finished shape that most 'knife steels' even if they been properly annealed. You get more good practice with RR Spikes. Finally, you can make a RR spike knife in a hour or two, 30 minutes once you get the hang of it. Making a good knife using knife steel also requires you to make handles, bolster, pins and requires finding the right glue,etc, etc,. This can take days or even weeks. It's ultimately worth it but I'd recommend you walk before you run. I'll send you a little document that you can use as a primer to make an excellant knife from leaf spring steel. You'll understand what I getting at. Good luck with whatever path you take and don't be afraid to ask questions!

Interesting thread. My BBQ used to have the propane tank underneath (changed plumbing to natural gas) but there was three layers of stainless steel with air gaps, between the grill and tank, and of course almost all of the heat goes up. With my own propane forges I have a 6 ft hose and the tank is 6 feet away. That said, the only problem I've seen is where a piece of hot steel sliped out of the tongs (friends tongs), landed on the propane hose and burned it in two. No fire but plenty of messy underwear - mine included I now keep the tank and hose behind the forge and behind the work area to prevent this. Also, my forge is insulated with 1" ceramic wool, 1/2" furnace/refractory cement and a couple of layers of Satanite. Even at welding temps the outer body of the forge is relatively cool - at least it won't burn you. I would suggest that if you put the tank under the forge just provide a couple of barriers of insulation, (stainless steel w/ air gaps, ceramic wool or something similar and keep the hose short. IMHO forges do get hotter that BBQ grills - mine certainly do - and reauire a little more protection.

Thomas, Your are quite right. I should have phrased my quest for a method to attached handles in a way that more precisely described what I was trying to accomplish or provided a caveat to that effect. What I meant was - I was looking for the way to attached slabs, made of either wood or antler, to a full tang handle design (of 5160 steel) such that, along with brass pins, would insure the slabs would remain secure to the tang under the most stressful conditions the knife would likely encounter given the options currently available at a reasonably economical cost. (similar to the tests performed that lead to the spreadsheet). What I found was an expoy, Loctite 'E' series (specifically E20HP) that has an adhesive strength of 3000 - 5000 psi, unaffected by temperatures up to 350 degrees, water resistent (dishwasher safe!) and strongly resistent chemicals/solvents. The result of my test with this epoxy yielded the folowing: Even without the brass pins I couldn't remove a piece of elk antler I epoxied to a clean (sandblasted) piece of 5160 using a 22 oz ball peen hammer (I did manage to break off some pieces of the antler by not any that had epoxy on it), heating to 350 degrees didn't have any effect and several dishwasher cycles on Max Clean/Pot Scrubber, Heated Drying did not losen the slabs. I also sprayed a liberal amount of Carb Cleaner on the test piece with no discernible effect. ;)

The hair dryer is used to supply air to the propane to make a fuel/air mixture. Based on the one's I've seen and used and the experience of people I know that have 'blown' propane forges, there are some advantages. By the way, most people use small squirrel cage blower rather than hair dryers. Advantages: 1. The forge can operate a a lower pressure 3-5 psi as opposed to the 8-10 psi my 'venturi' forge needs. Less pressure usually equates to lower propane use. 2. Blown forges can usually attain higher heat, (more air more heat) making it easier to attain 'welding heat'. If you're going to do a lot of forge welding, a blown forge is probably the way to go. 3. With most blower setups I've seen, there is a way to regulate the air, either a electrical rheostat or some type of shield to restrict the air flow. This allows for easier control of the heat produced (this control can be acheived in a venturi forge by air flow restrictors as well) Disadvantages: 1. You have to have a source of electricity to power the blower (hair dryer, squirrel cage blower or whatever) 2. Blowers, and especially hair dryers, are usually inexpensive and not terribly robust pieces of equipment. When they stop running you have to replace them before you can use the forge again. 3. Electrical wires/extension cords don't play well with hot steel. I've seen a red hot knife blade slip out of some tongs and land on the extension cord - 4th of July sparks in a heart-beat!

The easiest place to get Satanite, other than the internet, is your local pottery/ceramic supply store. You might try Alberta Ceramic Supplies, Edmonton or Ceramic Canada in Alberta.

I've been surfing the 'net for months tying to determine the best way to attach slabs/handles to knife tangs - specifically elk antler. I'd tried several methods, epoxy, peened rivets (brass, copper,steel) and special bolts. All work to some degree but nothing great. I finally found some great information on a couple of forums, knifenetwork being the most informative, and thought I'd pass along the information. For those not wanting to read the whole thread, here is a summary. The best way (according to the professionals) to attach slabs/handles is with high strenth aerospace epoxy and pins. A couple of knife makers/members of the knifenetwork forum tested a number of glues and epoxies and documented the results in a spreadsheet. Here is the link to the spreadsheet along with a link to the thread (LOOOONNNGGG thread). I've also include information about Loctites epoxy designations. The 'E' series of epoxies are high end epoxies you can't get at Lowes or Home Depot (try Fastenal first). All 'E' series are extremely high strength and the HP's are high performance. Good Stuff Adhesive spreadsheet Epoxy Spreadsheet Testing for the Ultimate Adhesive Testing for the Ultimate Adhesive Loctite Epoxy nomenclature First Letter E = Epoxy Numbers (120 and 60/50/40/30/20) = Cure time Last Letters = Sub type/color: HP high performance CL clear FL flexible IC induction cure NS non-sag NC Non-Corrosive GW galvanized steel to wood HT high temp UT contains kevlar

Shucks! I like the idea of being a 'Junior' member. Makes me feel younger .

Now that you have your stump here's what I did to anchor one of my anvils. I call it 'Shoes for my Anvil'. Forged/Welded 3/16 flat bar.

Yes, it will definitely help! In spite of what you may have read here it will help protect the KOAWOOL. I used an almost identical product, Hercules Furnace Cement, and acheived very good results and at a VERY reasonable cost as well. I had to initally thin the cement with water to get it to spread on the KOAWOOL, not too thin, you don't want it to soak in. Dry slow with low heat, I use a heat gun on low. If it cracks don't worry, you'll need to apply several thin layers followed by several thicker layers (un-thinned). Dry each layer slow with low heat, filling in any cracks each time. eventually you get a pretty durable protective layer for the KOAWOOL. A container of that size should allow for periodic maintenance as well. I finished my with a couple of coats of Satanite both to reflect the heat back into the forge and to further protect the cement/ceramic wool. This has been the most cost effective method to line a propane forge I've found. As inexpensive as the furnace cement, it is well worth the effort!

I don't know the 'science' behind annealing 5160 but in the past when I tried heating to critical (or slightly beyond) and 'soaking' for a few minutes and then air cooling , it did not soften the steel much. In fact I burnt up a couple of drill bits trying to drill holes in the tang for the pins. Then I tried the 'slow cool' method. I reheated and immediately put the blade in a garbage can full of wood ash. After a day of cooling I was able to not only drill it without damaging the drill bits but was able to shape it with a file (draw filing as well).

The easiest way I've found is to use 4" polishing wheels on my 4" Makita Grinder. They work like a charm and will product a almost mirror finish in a relatively short time. I found them at Harbor Freight for $9 on sale, regularly $12.99 Go here. HF Polishing Wheels

I found this on another website but figured it shoud be shared. For those that don't already know, ceramic wool is used to line propane/natural gas forges. Common brand names include KOAWOOL, and Fiberfrax Durablanket® among others. Usual prices are $7-$8 per lineal foot (1" thick x 24" wide by 1 foot long). The price is $45 for a 25 ft roll (1"x24"x25') Here is the link. This product has the same insulation specs as the KOAWOOL brand. Ceramic Wool

Charcoal is cleaner than coal but so is coke. Converting coal to coke is just like converting wood to charcoal, you burn off the impurities. If you're not making you own charcoal then it will be cleaner. It will take more charcoal that coal/coke because there just isn't as much energy stored in charcoal as in coal/coke. You might want to look into purchasing coke rather than raw coal.

Actually the metal for the firepot doesn't need to be very thick as long as you protect it. I use firebrick and have seen others that line their forges with refractory cement. Firebrick is much less expensive that 1/4" steel plate That said, if cost and fabrication are not issues then go with heavier guage steel, 3/16" or 1/4".

Very Nice. I might even steal some of your design . You might thing about adding some firebrick. Line the sides and bottom around the air holes with half bricks - they save space but will prolong the life of the steel sides. I'd also put some on the area around the forge pot itself. Might reduce the heat transfer to the surrounding table and keep your coke contained.

MRKiddi, Forging with wood is quite difficult. First, it takes a constant effort to keep enough wood burning to generate sufficient coals that will attain forging heat. This effort makes it very difficult to work the metal while manitaing the fire. Second, it takes a whole lot of forced air to get it and keep it hot enough. Finally, like raw coal, all raw wood contains impurities that can contaminate the iron or steel you want to work. If you can get plain wood then you are better off making charcoal. Charcoal, once burning, attains forging heat faster than raw wood and doesn't have the impurities (converting wood to charcoal burns off the impurities. It still take a fair amount of air, just not as much as raw wood. Making charcoal is easy. Just take whatever wood you can find (untreated) and cut or break it into small pieces, about 5cm x 5cm. Find a steel container with lid (or BBG Grill) and place some kindling/paper in the bottom them fill with the wood pieces. The lid needs to have a small hole in it - 6 - 8 mm and fit on tight (I use a 5 gal steel bucket (about 20 liters). Light the wood on fire and let burn until you start to see good coals forming. Then place the lid on and wait until it stops burning and cools down. Presto, you have charcoal! To speed the process up just add air while the coals are forming. If all the wood does not convert to charcoal just repeat. One note, during this process you can create a lot of smoke, a whole lot depending on the type of wood. The same as converting coal to coke. By the way, I have both propane forges and coal/charcoal forges. To heat a knife size blank of spring steel (5160) to forging temperature it takes 5 minutes on my propane forge (probably $1 US), using coal it takes 10 minutes and about 1 cubic foot of coal (30cm squared??) and using charcoal, it takes 12-15 minutes, and 2 - 3 times as much charcoal as coal. Even more telling is the time to reheat. Because I have to add coal/charcoal, stack the coals on the steel and adjust the air, it takes much longer to reheat with coal/charcoal - or the order of 3-4 times as long as reheating with propane. Takes only a minute in my propane forge. The other advantage of propane over coal/charcoal is portability. I can load my propane forge, stand and propane tank (10kg) into the trunk of my Honda with ease. I can forge all day with one tank. To load my small (relatively) coal forge and enough coal/charcoal for a day of forging I would need my fullsize Pickup! And at least 50 kg of coal. Propane Forges (homemade) Coal Forge (also homemade)

I don't have any direct experience with this particular forge but it looks like it has two burners that direct the flames/heat straight down. Probably fine for most blacksmithing/forging but for knife making most people want a more even heat. On the two forges I've made, the first had similar burners and does in fact heat the metal in two distinct spots first. It doesn't take too long for the heat to begin to even out but the second forge I built with offset and canted burners heats much more evenly from the get-go. You can mitigate the uneven heating just by moving the piece around in the heat - not as easy as just placing the piece in the forge and coming back in a minute or two but it works.

Yes, I have. In fact I have two ways to adjust the air. First, moving the nozzles in/out of the venturi cones by adjusting the nuts on the threaded rod and second, and by far the simplest and most effective is by placing a small steel disk partially over the venturi opening. I have two of these disks for each forge and just hold them in place with magnets. I'm considering attaching a swivel point for the disks but the magnets work just fine.