reefera4m

First, coke is just coal with the impurities burnt out. You can continuously make coke from coal - even while forging. Just place the coal outside of the burning coke and let the impruities slowly burn off (stay upwind). Once coal has been converted to coke it burns as clean as good charcoal and better than bad charcoal. The switch to caol was due to the depletion of available wood. Pretty much the same now, if your near a source of coal it can easily be cheaper that charcoal but if not, good charcoal can be homemade from a variety of wood. Just don't use chemically treated or painted/varnished wood. As for coal/coke dust versus charcoal - not much difference. I use both (more coal/coke) and have seen as much if not more dust in charcoal as in coal/coke. Charcoal is much softer and more brittle than coal/coke and tends to make dust faster. It has less impurities that coal but the same or slightly more that good coke. I've never seen a charcoal only forge. All the solid fuel forges I've been around have been used with both coke/charcoal.

A different view on RR Spike knives. While I don't teach 'bladesmithing' per se, I do teach a little basic forging. It is far easier to learn proper forging technique on 'softer' lower carbon steel than even well annealed high carbon steel. Good techinque on low carbon steel is good technique on all steels. Just as bad technique on low carbon steel is bad technique on high C steel. And good forging/hammering technigue, is, IMHO, one of the true keys to successful bladesmithing. Starting with leaf/coil spring steel (most commonly 5160) is much more challenging. The carbon content (2x+ that of the highest carbon content of HC RR spikes) plus the chromium, makes 5160, even when anneal properly, still very tough to forge. Certainly not what I'd use to teach a beginner forging techniques. I've found in working with beginners that they are much more likely to develop faster if they can see positive results early on. It is darn difficult to achieve early success pounding away on 5160 and not being able to see much progress. I suppose it also depends on the beginner, I been teaching teenagers how to forge (and make some blades). Starting with RR spikes they developed the skill, the strength and best of all, the motivation to continue to harder steels. One other thought - lower carbon steel like RR Spike steel, can be much more unforgiving that high C steel. While easier to work, it is also easier to overheat, overhammer and generally over work. Like all steels, the more you work it, the more carbon you lose and the more problems you introduce. Rather than creating bad habits, I find that it does just the opposite. I also find that beginners have more time/energy to observe and learn about the various stages of forging, the colors/temperatures, the hammering techniques, etc, that when they spend all of their enery trying desperately to get a piece of 5160 or 1080 just to move. Having made several knives of 5160, I think it is an excellant choice for blades (I'm not alone by any means - Ed Caffery aka 'The Montana Bladesmith' is a HUGH proponent of 5160. That said, I still think you should learn to crawl first, walk second, run third and if possible, eventually FLY. And sometimes, just for the fun and novelty, I like to make RR spike knives. They're great to try out new design ideas, styles, shapes and geometries.

WHooYAAA Moderator! Well put and appropriate. Thank you from the otherwise 'silent' majority!

Fine looking knife blade, first attempt or not. I too used drawfiling to help shape and refine my blades. Done correctly and you can achieve very uniform blades. Works great to level/flatten the area that need it and can take off a fair amount of metal in a relatively short period of time. You might be thinking of a bolster or guard - brass (or bronze) is a very common choice for this.

You'll have to provide more information for us to really be of help. Where you're located makes a big difference on where you can source materials. Firebrick, for example, can be found at fireplace/woodstove stores, ceramic/pottery supply houses and specialty masonry outlets - and even Home Depot on occasion). Ceramic wool (not brand names required) can also sometimes be found at the first two places. One of the best Internet site is Mcgillswarehouse[/url. Propane reulators can be found a high-end hardware stores, (sometimes even Ace), a local propane dealer or from even a barbeque grill regulator from Craigslist can work for some setups. It would also be helpful to know what you're planning to forge and whether you intend to do any forge welding. What size forge you are contemplating would also help. I'd look for metal 5 gallon drums on Craigslist first. However, I hope you're not planning to use this as a forge body! It would be 50 X too large! The number and size of the burners it would require would easily outstrip most regulators ability to provide enough propane. It would also be so inefficient that you would find it almost impossible to work with. Most knife forges or forges that are used to make small tools, art pieces, etc. are fairly small - volume wise about a gallon. Think about it - you can only forge, i.e. hammer, on a small area at a time - most metal cools too quickly to work more that a small area at one time. Heating more than the work area is both a waste of fuel and potentially dangerous - the area you are not working will burn anything it touches.

Great start. I started out with RR spike steel (even milder) and I learned a lot about forging techniques. Now that I've made a few knives of harder stuff (5160) I'm very glad I started with the softer stuff. Starting out on 5160 could have proven discouraging to say the least. After practicing on a half dozen or so RR spike knifes, learning from other bladesmith and gaining some experience, I swithced to 5160. I quickly found out that it takes about 10 times as much work (and 10 times as much fuel - either coal or propane) to make a blade as mild steel - even when annealed properly. Without the prior expenience of the RR spike knives it probably would have take 100 times as long and 50 times as much work - which when just starting out would probably never happened. So for what its worth, practice on a few more pieces of milder steel (RR spikes can make some pretty cool 'looking' knives). And be mentally prepared to deal with the greatter effort required for the harder steels. And by the way, 5160 is approx .6% carbon and .7% - .9% chromium, making it, when heat treated properly, as hard as properly heat treated 1080 or 1095.

Insulation does have an effect on propane use. The better insulated the forge the more heat it retains, the faster the metal heats up, reducing the time needed to use the propane. The higher temp wool is similiar to higher 'R' rated home insulation - in addition to being less likely to degrade at higher temperatures. To gain a better insulation 'bang for the buck', add a coating of furnace cement (or Satanite) and ITC100 over the ceramic wool. The ITC100 has a reflective capability that will further increase the interior heat and reduce the fuel consumption. At least it works on my propane forges.

Without seeing a photo of the venturi/burner I couldn't say for sure, but my vernturi burner will handle pressures up to .8 bar (12 psi) without producing an oxidizing flame and will get up to welding heat at the higher pressures. But it's not just the burner that makes the interior of the forge hot. The lining of the forge can contribute significantly to the maximum heat obtainable. Ed Caffery (aka the Montana Bladesmith) says that he has acheived and increase of 400 degees Farenheit by lining the interior with ITC100. I lined my forges (on top of the ceramic wool insulation) with a combination of high temp furnace cement (3000 degree F) and ITC100. While I don't know how much of the increase in heat is attributable to the lining I do know that it was significant. The ITC100 reflects the heat from the lining back into the interior.

A photo would help. In my experience, the placement of the nozzle in the venturi cup can be crucial. On my forges ($20 Forge), I'm able to adjust the nozzle position within the venturi cup which. Finding the right position makes a world of difference in my design. Also check for any leaks at the nozzle - I once had a small leak right at the nozzle and it interfered with the venturi to the point that I got very poor performance at the burner end. You're somewhat correct about the flame, lots of orange indicates a carburizing flame and rather than not enough velocity it is an indication of not enough air/too much gas. The solution is to reduce the gas or enable more air while maintaining enough velocity in the venturi. Nozzle position in the venturi cone along with the gas pressure has a hugh impact on determining the gas/air mixture to the burner. Too far in or out can chage the gas/air mixture and produce the results you're seeing. If you can't adjust the nozzle position or doing so doesn't help, using a larger venturi would probably help as would reducing the gas prssure. However, the use of the larger tip (.050) at a reduced gas flow (pressure) might prevent the gas from picking up enough ir in the venturi. A smaller tip at higher pressure would provide enough gas velocity to pick up the air in the venturi while reducing the relative amount of gas to air mixture. Hope this helps.

When it comes right down to it, burner placement won't make much difference for forging or heat treating knives. Some will tell you that a single burner or two burner forge with direct flame will heat the metal unevenly - which is true. But even the best designed forge and the best offset burner placement that results in the most even heat distribution within the forge will heat blades unevenly. This is because the edges of the blade are thinner than the spine and the tip is thinner than the base. Thin parts simply heat faster than the thicker parts. No matter what you do you will have to move the blade around to even out the heating. There is one way to mitigate this problem other than moving the blade around (and also reduce scaling) - place the blade in a length of square tubing and heat it in the forge. The tubing gets hot first and transfers the heat more evenly to the blade. I've built forges of two designs - one with two burners placed evenly spaced on top of the forge and one with the burners offset. The second forge does heat the interior of the forge more evenly, creating a 'swirl' effect of the heat. It doesn't, however, heat a blade more evenly. It does heat any metal stock that has a uniform dimension more evenly than the first forge so if you are starting with blanks or making tools from stock it does have advantages for the initial forging. Still, once you start to shape any piece of metal you'll find that you have to move it around to get an even heat. See my post $20 Forge

Brake discs are largely cast iron ( only 3% - 4% carbon), though some have ceramic or carbon fiber included. Probably not the best choice for forgin a knife and probably not much better than a RR spike (2% carbon).

Looks great - I especially like the door design. What type of 'ram refractory' are you using? I'd like to try something more substantial that what I'm currently using which is furnace cement and and ITC100. I coated the ceramic wool first with high temp (3000 degree) furnace cement (built up in thin layers) then a top coat of ITC100 )also a couple of thin layers). The cement provides some protection for the ceramic wool and the ITC100 reflects heat back into the forge. However, even the combination of the cement and ITC100 requires some ongoing maintenance as it tends to flake and/or chip. What I'd really like is a cement that would make a 1/2" - 3/4" lining on top of the wool and stay rigid without flaking. Applying cemen/ITC100 on wool doesn't lend itself to a strong shell. I've considered fabricating a cylinder of steel lath (like stucco lath, placing it on top of the wool and then applying a thicker layer of furnace cement to the lath. Then coat the cement again with ITC100. My theory is that the lath would provide a stronger foundation for the cement and the cement/ITC100 would provide enough insulation to protect the lath. Any thoughts on this approach?

The purpose of the ash is to insulate the hot steel and allow it to cool as slowly as possible. The more 'insulation' the slower the cooling. Some 'experts' recommend cooling at a rate of 50 degrees/hour when using a kiln with 'step-down' process capability. I've found that using a 12" layer of wood ash surrounding the steel will slow the cooling down to between 8-12 hours, usually overnight. This seems to be sufficient when I anneal 5160. I keep a large (35 gal) garbage can full of dry wood ash and place whatever steel I,mtrying to anneal into the center of the can, surrounded by at least 12" of ash. I've been using more vermiculite recently since I found some at Lowes ($23/3.5 cubic feet). It's less messy and seems easier to keep dry. Vermiculite also doesn't leave any residue on the steel like wood ash sometimes does.

A variable speed will definitely help you in both the short and long run. Slower speeds are the key for post heat treating grinding/polishing work - helps keep the heat down. Higher speeds can be used for the rough work after forging. If you want to use the grinder to shape handle material then variable is definitely the way to go - some materials requires slower speeds to lesson the chance of leaving scorch marks.

You're design doesn't look nearly as complicated as some I've seen. Here are some U.S. companies that will do a good job for you. I've heard Buckeye is the least expensive. Buckeye Engraving Henry Aevers CER Metal Marking

While I haven't used it on knife handles I have used quite a bit of it around my wood stove and propane forges. It doesn't seem to have that much adhesive strenght and seems to easily peel off of steel. You'll be primarily relying on the pins to hold the scales on. I slso don't think it works well on wood or bone. None of the silicons I've ever used, high temp, marine, regular, adhere to wood well. Although the silicon is water proof if/when it starts to peel it will trap water inside the handle. There are certainly much better alternatives.

First WELCOME! Great beginning knife Leaf spring steel (5160), properly heat treated will make great wood carving knives. Here's a photo of a couple of wood chisel I made with leaf springs steel. I used the blades to turn the handles out of hickory on a lathe then attached the blades to the handles. The steel held its edge. No noticeable dulling, nicking or bending!

Be very careful about 'dumping' lime or baking soda into two gallons of Muratic Acid - a 50/50 solution will react violently and be all over the place before it's all neutralized - don't ask me how I know . Just add a little at a time and wait unitl each reaction subsides before adding more.

Spring steel such as leaf springs/coil springs from older vehicles is commonly 5160 - .6% carbon/.8% chromium - they're not 'simple' steels. They can be a bear to work and need to be annealed just to be workable. Not as difficult as 52100 (Carbon 0.98 - 1.1 Chromium 1.3 - 1.6) but tough nevertheless.

Nice work! It gives me a couple of ideas for making some more hardies. I just came in to post some pictures of hardies I've recently made (just took the photos): Cut-Off hardie - made with the rear leaf spring from a '78 Ford HD Pickup - almost 3/4" at the base, welded to a piece of 1" square stock then heat-treated and tempered, (that's not a nick on the edge just a piece of lint that I missed): Bending Hardie - made from the rear axles of a lawn tractor, the uprights allow for bending stock up to an inch, or using the pin holes 1/4 inch, the horizontal bar allows for forging 3/4" curves (think wood gouge), all three pieces welded to 1" square stock: Both:

I ran into a new type of flux a few weeks ago while attending a Hammer-in hosted by a ABS Journeyman bladesmith. He demonstrated making a damascus billet using a number of alternating layers of 1080 & 15N20 stacked 2 -3 inches high. He simply sprayed WD40 between the layers and heated to welding temp and press welded the layers into a 1" billet (30 ton press). His technique produced the cleanest, inclusion free weld possible. According to him the burning/evaporating WD40 eliminates all the oxygen preventing any scale from forming. If seeing is believing then I'm definitely a believer! He cut a cross-section of the resulting 1" billet and we were all amazed at how clean and solid the interior of the billet was - simply beautiful.

All you accomplish by melting it down and regrinding is eliminating the water (H20). Anhydrous borax is chemically(Na2B4O7), while Borax (the Twenty Mule Team Variety) is Na2B4O7·10H2O having ten water molecule per unit of borax. Simply heating the borax in a shallow pan in an oven at over 212 degree F for a half hour or so will accomplish the same thing - evaporate and eliminate the water. This will happen in the forge but the H20 evaporation will contribute some oxidation in the process. It best to dry the borax first. Borax readily re-asborbs water so after drying use it or store it in a sealed, moisture proof container or plan on re-drying it before each use.

Not necessarily true. If properly edge quenched, finished to 800/1000 grit and immersed in a 10% - 15% solution of ferric chloride you may indeed be able to see a hamon. Some are faint, some non-existant and some show up well. Like all steel alloys , 5160 - especially from a leaf spring, can vary in quality/content. If you are really interested in the hamon give it a try - nothing to lose.

Yep, those are the one's I remember! I'm surpised that they were made of 1095 even though that's what the manufacturer says their current Ka-Bars are made of (not wiki). The reason I'm skeptical is that I remember them as being very easy to sharpen and they didn't hold an edge all that long.

Leaf spring steel can be made into an excellant sword. 5160 is the most common steel used for leaf springs, particularly in older US built cars. It can be a bear to forge, it gets its hardness not only from the carbon but the chromium that is used (.6 carbon/.8 chromium approx). 'It exhibits excellent toughness and high ductility, with a high tensile-yield ratio' (property data sheet). Properly forged and heat treated it will hold an edge yet retain some flexibility. According to Ed Caffrey, 'The Montana Bladesmith', more people have passed the ABS journeyman test with this steel than any other. The test is: chop a 2x4 in half, cut a free-hanging 1" manila or sisal rope with one slice, then shave hair using the area of the blade that was used in chopping/slicing and finally bend 90 degrees without breaking. Sounds a lot like the properties that would make a good sword. This steel really needs to be annealed to be workable, particularly for a sword lenght blade. Heat the blade to critical, hold for at least 5 minutes and then immediately place in a large tub of vermiculite or wood ash (wood ash will if dry but vermiculite is MUCH cleaner). The intent it to cool the steel SLOWLY. This assumes you don't have access to a oven capable of progressive heat reduction - if you do then the process is slightly different. Another key I've found when using leaf springs is the level of finish before heat treating. The fewer defects in the blade, i.e. deep scratches, hammer marks, nicks, coarse grinding/file marks, etc., the less likely the blade will fracture/crack during the quench. I finish blades to at least 400 grit to eliminate these type stress points. Finally, you can bring out a mirror finish with this steel - with a lot of work and 800/1000 grit sandpaper or you can sand it to 400 grit and it will still look great!