Smithin Magician

[Eddie Mullins]

The tool is designed with a little wiggle room in the guides to allow the dies to move but still stay in alignment.  The dies (on the tools I have used) slide in from the top.  Any supports, buttresses, plates etc that are used, just make the tool stronger. 

 

Thanks, that's what I was thinking, I'm trying to figure out the bolt vs weld together designs. I'm planning to weld unless there are reasons not to.

[Glenn]

Some folks have a drill, some have a drill press, some have a welder. Use what is available to you. Let us know how it turns out please.

[ClevelandGuy]

On 3/15/2010, 8:00:36, RichardT said:

I confess I stole my design from Irnsrgn. I can see the advantages of the more open designs, but this one allowed me to work within my meagre talents. It is constructed 100% from truck leaf springs (generously donated by our local suspension modifying company who considers “Standard” springs to be worth less than scrap.

Starting with a flat leaf (there are usually several in a spring pack) and angle-grinding lengths of spring into pieces, then using a length of spring as a guide, I was able to weld together an extremely robust frame that, without any skill on my behalf, has exactly parallel guides, with radiused edges, cost me nothing beyond a cutting disk & some welding sticks, and works a treat. Tools are constructed from spring steel, so they’re hard and tough.

I guess it’s horses for courses, but since I benefited from Irnsrgn’s design (found in a blueprint last year), I thought it only right to share my humble alternatives which don’t require access to a milling machine.

Cheers,

Richard


Showing the cut pieces resting on the "future die" to ensure accurate spacing before welding.




The "finished" product in my stump.

Sorry to drag out an old thread, but I'm new to the forum and every link I click says it's not available.  Is there something I'm doing wrong here or is there an expiration date on old forum links?  Really like to see some of these smithin magician mods.

 

Thanks

[arkie]

A lot of the older pictures had been lost on the site from what I understand.  The mods can explain further.

[Charlotte]

The basic design and parts are available from "Blacksmith's Journal"   The creator and popularizer  of The Smithin' magician

[John B]

This is an old prototype version I made many years ago and still in use today,

 

 

 

 

This was my next version using flat plates for the front and back instead of the welded straps I used on the prototype (Material was what was available at that time) dimensions are in millimetres, 100mm  x  6mm MS plate used

The dies are from 2" x 1" as I find this more useful for me.

 

 

The mounting is a flat plate that fits corner wise into the hardie hole on my anvil, I can also use it in a vise if the situation demands it,

This mounting method presents the tool at 45 degrees to the anvil which I also find convenient for my puposes

Dies are from Bright mild steel, some case hardened, some with an insert of or faced with spring steel and welded to the body, depending on their use.

The striker button is some Hex section bar I had lying around, but could be any shape, it just prevents the top of the die from mushrooming and concentrates impact onto centre of it.

You can also incorporate spacer buttons in the bottom die to give predetermined sizes for tenons etc

Hope this is of some use, I am currently about to make some more to be used on the courses at Westpoint Forge (Exeter Devon UK) for the students to use and assess as they are most handy when you are working on your own, and don't have a striker  handy to assist you.

Feel free to ask any questions you may have, this is just my version.

[ClevelandGuy]

On 11/9/2015, 9:58:26, John B said:

This is an old prototype version I made many years ago and still in use today,

 

 

 

 

This was my next version using flat plates for the front and back instead of the welded straps I used on the prototype (Material was what was available at that time) dimensions are in millimetres, 100mm  x  6mm MS plate used

The dies are from 2" x 1" as I find this more useful for me.

 

 

The mounting is a flat plate that fits corner wise into the hardie hole on my anvil, I can also use it in a vise if the situation demands it,

This mounting method presents the tool at 45 degrees to the anvil which I also find convenient for my puposes

Dies are from Bright mild steel, some case hardened, some with an insert of or faced with spring steel and welded to the body, depending on their use.

The striker button is some Hex section bar I had lying around, but could be any shape, it just prevents the top of the die from mushrooming and concentrates impact onto centre of it.

You can also incorporate spacer buttons in the bottom die to give predetermined sizes for tenons etc

Hope this is of some use, I am currently about to make some more to be used on the courses at Westpoint Forge (Exeter Devon UK) for the students to use and assess as they are most handy when you are working on your own, and don't have a striker  handy to assist you.

Feel free to ask any questions you may have, this is just my version.

Thanks for the detail, John.  It looks like your dies are of two different widths.  How do you prevent the thinner ones from tilting?  Some kind of spacers inserted alongside them?

[HWooldridge]

John,

The striker button is an interesting concept.  I left my top dies a little long and forged a short taper on the power hammer to centralize the impact - then reforge when they mushroom.  I like your solution better.

Hollis

[John B]

8 hours ago, ClevelandGuy said:

Thanks for the detail, John.  It looks like your dies are of two different widths.  How do you prevent the thinner ones from tilting?  Some kind of spacers inserted alongside them?

Hi CG, no, they are all the same stock width, they appear to be different because I was trying to show what the die does,

The "narrow" ones are the equivelent of a side elevation in a drawing, showing the profiles of the top and bottom dies so you can associate them with the traditional tools used when a striker is available.

The "wider" ones equate to a front elevation, showing the profiles across the die (front to back), The ones pictured, I use for round tenons.

I have many more, but these are the ones I find most commonly used.

Hope this clarifies the situation.

[KYBOY]

We are in the process of making a new guillotine.We have had the same one for years. We made it with 3/8" dies to start because that's what we had to work with at the time. Its made from 3/8" plate and even at that im real surprised that its survived the beating we have givin it..Its been regularly whaled on with a 8 pound hammer fullering hammer and axe heads..been re welded several times until the last time I broke down, cleaned all the old small mig weld off and did 6010 root passes and cap welds of 7018 just like I did when I took my bend test..Shes been sound ever since..We did the button on top just like John did though the first three have been hammered away to nothing and replaced,LOL. this is what it looked like when it was new.

[Smoggy]

Gary Huston does a good build video, well worth a watch  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh9TDVDm93s

.....and a follow up using it.

[ClevelandGuy]

On 11/12/2015, 11:20:29, Smoggy said:

Gary Huston does a good build video, well worth a watch  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh9TDVDm93s

.....and a follow up using it.

Wow, you're right, Gary.  That was a great video.  And it re-emphasized my desire to get a MIG...I wouldn't want to try those inside welds he performed, using my stick welder.

So, I'm assuming that when everyone was talking about modifications to allow 45 degree angles, they were referring to how he notched the side pieces out?  The reason I restarted this thread was because, yes, I'd like to buy a SM, but if there's a modification that substantially increases its usability, I'd prefer to go that route, even if it requires fabbing up the pieces myself.

[DSW]

The Smithin Magician like John B shows is available from Blacksmiths Supply. The style like Gary Huston shows is available as the G2 from Yesteryear Forge.

 

I like the G2 as you can use it to fuller the length of a piece as well as across the work. So if you want to put a groove down the length of a small blade, you simply turn the work to come in from the side vs the end.

[Michael Cochran]

I'm scrounging materials to build one similar to what he did. I'll be using a stick welder and I assure you that I'm gonna weld the pieces in a different order so that it'll be easier on me. I'm not sure why he welded in the order he did but he made it hard on himself for sure.

I'm scrounging materials to build one similar to what he did. I'll be using a stick welder and I assure you that I'm gonna weld the pieces in a different order so that it'll be easier on me. I'm not sure why he welded in the order he did but he made it hard on himself for sure.

[ClevelandGuy]

On 11/14/2015 at 9:31 AM, Michael Cochran said:

On 11/14/2015 at 9:28 AM, DSW said:

On 11/14/2015 at 9:28 AM, DSW said:

The Smithin Magician like John B shows is available from on line. The style like Gary Huston shows is available as the G2 from Yesteryear Forge.

I like the G2 as you can use it to fuller the length of a piece as well as across the work. So if you want to put a groove down the length of a small blade, you simply turn the work to come in from the side vs the end.

The Smithin Magician like John B shows is available from on line. The style like Gary Huston shows is available as the G2 from Yesteryear Forge.

I like the G2 as you can use it to fuller the length of a piece as well as across the work. So if you want to put a groove down the length of a small blade, you simply turn the work to come in from the side vs the end.

 

Awesome!  Thanks for the link, DSW.  That's what I was looking for.  And I see they offer a sweet bending jig package as well....

 

[DSW]

Yes. I have both their Versa Jig and their G2. I bought them after talking to one of the guys at ABANA in Delaware last year. ( I wish I could remember his name right now Grrr...) I'd thought about building my own copy, but the info I got from the guy at the booth on how to use the tools for various projects was well worth the extra money I spent.

[ClevelandGuy]

Agreed.  The pricing on these things isn't high to begin with, and if you figure in the time, material and aggravation spent building your own (unless you like that kind of thing), it's kinda a no-brainer in my opinion.

[KYBOY]

For you guys using a arc welder you can bend you rod a bit to get in those corners and it makes it a lot easier..

Oh I also that I know its kinda hard to cough up money just to buy one but if you have to take the time to cut all the materials and/or buy the materials your just about there anyway..I like both versions. The smithing magician while it isn't open it is a very,very sturdy design and you can see your work very well with it..The C frame ones allow more wiggle room and ways to place your stock in..

Heres a C frame that we are working on right now. very heavy. made from 1/2" plate..Waiting on the die material to get here(found a screamin deal on some 4340 stock on ebay) so it can be fitted up..

[Quarry Dog]

Here's a 45 degree one that I cached away into my tools to make folder.  This thread might even be where I found it.  Pardon the odd naming convention, it's how I keep the ideas organized.

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Imma wake up an old thread here, 

Back around Halloween BillyBones made some sweet looking pumpkins outta pipe and I asked him what he used an he said a guillotine which started me looking at some commercially available ones 

there’s some really really cheesy ones on Amazon with bad reviews and then there’s some crazy expensive ones that are built at an angle like the one above and then I found two comparable ones.

price is roughly the same only difference I can see is the BS depot one is bolted together and comes with a cutting die, and the one from BS supply is riveted together an comes with no dies, 

both companies offer several ready made dies to choose from as well as blanks to make your own,

I was wondering if anyone on here has tried one or both of them out and what your opinion is on them? 

also I found some stuff at the scrap yard that I think would make a perfect tooling stand for a guillotine, some 12”x12” 3/8” plate and a 1/4” walled rectangle pipe that’s 3”x6” and a piece of 3/8” plate that just so conveniently happened to have a 1” square hole already in it!!!! Lol

i was wondering if anyone else has a stand for your guillotines and what you like or dislike about them? 

here’s a mock up of what I’m thinking an it would be anchored into concrete and filled with sand

 

[Glenn]

There are several designs, H shape, C shape, and 45 degree diagonal.  Each has a purpose.

[Shainarue]

I always thought this seemed like something you'd be able to whip up real quick in your shop with all the scrap options you have! I have a version of the bolted one sketched in my 'to-do' tools book in case I got around to making it before I obtained a welder. I figured I'd purchase the dies but make the holder myself.

As for the stand, since you have a hardy hole, why not use it at the anvil? Then you're right there if/when you need to tweak stuff. Obviously I don't have any experience with it - since I've already mentioned that I haven't made the tool yet - but just my thinking.

Curious to see what others with experience say.

[BillyBones]

I have 2 guillotines. 1 C frame and 1 H frame. Both mount into the hardy of my anvil. A stand may not be a bad idea becuase i use the H frame one so much i leave it laying on the floor next to my anvil stand. 

3/8" fullering dies is about all i use, i also have a set of butcher dies and 1 set of 3/8" tenoning dies. But the fuller is my go to for just about everything.  

I built my C frame one and bought my H frame. My C frame is welded together while the H frame is bolted. There will be a lot of scale that will fall down into your bottom die, the bolt together can be easily taken apart to clean it out while the welded one the dies have to be removed to clean it out. However every once in a while you have to tighten the bolts back down. If i wish to make* other dies i do not have to worry as much about the stock being to thick as a couple spacers on the bolts will make them work, while the welded one they have to be the same size. 

The C frame is a bit more versatile than the H frame. The H frame can only be used from the front or back, for say necking down stock to make pumpkins with, while the C frame can be used from the side as well, for say putting fullers into a knife blade. Both are limited to the size of the opening though. I can get up to 1-3/4" stock into mine but other than making a hammer or some such thing how many times will you be working stock that size and need a guillotine? 

The hardies on mine are also off set to one side. That puts the tool on the sweet spot of my anvil rather than right over the heel. Again the C frame is welded on and the H frame bolted, and once in a while the bolt needs tightened down. 

Those pictured, i have never used them but i would have a concern about the round topped one. The tool will raise the striking spot a good 8" above your anvil, so you will not hit square and flat when using the tool. I would be afraid that the curve on the top would push the force of the blow to one side or the other. As my flat tops have mushroomed one side more than the other i have noticed this happening and the fullered spot will be at an angle rather than nice and flat or it will cause twisting in the stock. 

Regardless of which you choose i would highly recommend one for your shop. I have found way more uses for mine than i had originally thought about and like i said it has become one of the most used tools in my shop. 

*A note about making dies, leaf springs work great to make them from.  

 

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

1 hour ago, Shainarue said:

with all the scrap options you have

Shaina

You’re right!

I probably got more than enough stuff piled up around here i could make a half dozen of them!

…..buuuuut I’m a lazy smith, an this one just shows up in my mailbox with dies ready to use!!! 

 Bahahaha! 
 

1 hour ago, Shainarue said:

As for the stand, since you have a hardy hole, why not use it at the anvil

I don’t have any problem with using it at the anvil but I’ve wanted to make a tooling stand for awhile for more than just the guillotine,

I also want to build a stand alone stand so I can swap out various bending and scrolling jigs and other tooling an use really long stock an not worry about anything shifting since it’d be anchored into the concrete pad

also what else am I gonna do with that perfect little square holed plate?!?! (Jerry don’t answer) 

And last but not least because I think a stand alone stand would look cool!  Lol 

BillyBones,

thank you for your insight on yours 

I think I will probably go with the bolt together one that has the flat top dies,

ive looked at the c framed ones both home made and factory made and I may make or buy one in the future but for now I think imma try out the one from BS Depot

do you have pictures of your C and H frames that you built?

 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Debi made a bolt together H frame one. It fits the hardy hole but what we found out the height of it makes it a little uncomfortable to use, unless we use a raised platform to stand on.

Picture before I made the dies or welded on the hardy stem.