Smithin Magician

[RichardT]

I confess I stole my design from Irnsrgn. I can see the advantages of the more open designs, but this one allowed me to work within my meagre talents. It is constructed 100% from truck leaf springs (generously donated by our local suspension modifying company who considers “Standard” springs to be worth less than scrap.

Starting with a flat leaf (there are usually several in a spring pack) and angle-grinding lengths of spring into pieces, then using a length of spring as a guide, I was able to weld together an extremely robust frame that, without any skill on my behalf, has exactly parallel guides, with radiused edges, cost me nothing beyond a cutting disk & some welding sticks, and works a treat. Tools are constructed from spring steel, so they’re hard and tough.

I guess it’s horses for courses, but since I benefited from Irnsrgn’s design (found in a blueprint last year), I thought it only right to share my humble alternatives which don’t require access to a milling machine.

Cheers,

Richard


Showing the cut pieces resting on the "future die" to ensure accurate spacing before welding.




The "finished" product in my stump.

[Mainely,Bob]

I guess it’s horses for courses, but since I benefited from Irnsrgn’s design (found in a blueprint last year), I thought it only right to share my humble alternatives which don’t require access to a milling machine.

Cheers,

Richard


Way to go!!
Now there`s yet more proof that you don`t need a pocket full of cash or a lot of fancy equipment to get a job done.All you need is some thought and creativity.
Good on ya,Richard!

[Winston]

Would most consider 3/4" thick dies to be optimal?

[Dragons lair]

Hi. Richard, Why on a stump? Would think it would bounce a lot. I built mine with a large
bottom plate. Offset so the die is centered on my anvil. Just a thought for ya mate.
Ken

[Dragons lair]

Would most consider 3/4" thick dies to be optimal?

Winston, I would think it would depend on what your making. I used 3/8 cause I milled the slots and could only find a 3/8 end mill. Great for cattails and candle holders.
Ken

[HWooldridge]

Would most consider 3/4" thick dies to be optimal?

Yes, 3/4" will work well - I have one tool that utilizes 3/4x2 stock. Might also be worth mentioning that the die stock can get too big for a typical hand hammer, such as using 2x4 or something along those lines (a 2x4x6 struck steel block would weigh over 13.5 lbs). The reason is too much inertia to overcome - the same problem seen when trying to use large handled top tools that were designed for use with sledges or a PH. Relatively light struck tools tend to perform more effectively so you don't need a monstrosity sitting on the anvil.

[RichardT]

Hi. Richard, Why on a stump? Would think it would bounce a lot. I built mine with a large
bottom plate. Offset so the die is centered on my anvil. Just a thought for ya mate.
Ken

It is actually in a portable hardy hole in the stump. If I'm ever lucky enough to get my hands on an anvil, I will gladly use it there. In the mean time, I'm in the process of making an "anvil" by stick welding leaf spring to a 40kg lump of mild steel I was able to pick up as scrap. Photo's of the "anvil" will follow in a different thread once it's done.

Unfortunately, more conventional style anvils are either soft cast iron or rare as hen's teeth in Western Australia - I read with a small level of frustration about $1/lb good quality anvils for sale in the USA. As for long distance options, I'm reluctant to buy an unknown quantity over the internet with high shipping costs, and without being able to "touchy-feely".

I was lucky enough to come across a 4" leg vise, which is my pride & joy, but it's really too high to add a fullering tool on top of. Even getting hold of a decent hammer is a challenge over here...

[DennisG]

The Blueprints sections used to have plans (0053) for the Smithin Magician. I can't seem to find them now. ANybody know why?

Try here for the blueprints .......

http://web.archive.org/web/20080501125923/www.iforgeiron.com/blueprints/index.php

[Glenn]

I confess I stole my design from Irnsrgn.

 

The Guillotine Anvil Tool is in the Blueprints section of IForgeIron

 

BP0065 Guillotine Anvil Tool
by Jr. Strasil - irnsrgn

[Steve Sells]

BP0065 Guillotine Anvil Tool
by Jr. Strasil - irnsrgn

 

It is archived in the IForgeIron Blueprints section and has been available for several years.

[Frank Turley]

Has anyone made one with some depth to it, as for making tenons?

[Glenn]

The factor in construction of the tool is the size of the stock you are working with and how far down you are fullering that stock. The top die is also a consideration as you need enough die in the uprights to be properly held in position and so the impact area of the hammer is above the side posts.

 

I made mine much heavier using leaf spring materials for the uprights that were maybe 3/8 inches thick and 2 inches wide. By increased the depth I found the top die needed a target to hit and to keep the impact area outside and above the posts. I used some 1-1/4 round stock about 1 inch long welded in place. They mushroom a bit with use, but can easily be dressed or replaced.  

 

One tip is in order to keep the dies matched up when not in use, drill small holes in both dies and wire them together 

 

To answer your original question, it would seem to be just making the bottom die at the right height for the tendon needed, taking into consideration the original stock size. Then build the rest of the tool around those dimensions. Build it heavier than you think you will need and use a flying buttress, buttress or a side brace to keep the posts upright and in alignment.

[John B]

In response to Frank, Mine had dies from 1" x 2"stock, ideal for making tenons and most other bits I required, the 1/2" to 3/4" were just to short, and in use meant drawing tenons down, the 1" stock does most of what I required for companion sets, brackets etc, and they were also wide enought to fit button head pins for depth stops/kiss blocks.

 

Here are some pics that may be useful or not.

 

This one was an early prototype, still in use today, fits in the hardie hole, or a leg vise if in strange territory, I like it at an angle so I can stand directly in front of it at the anvil when in use 

 

     

 

The side plates were then on later editions made from 100mm x 6 or 5mm plate and cut out as here on this one made to fit a vise, (mounting is optional to suit situation) there is no length stop fitted to this one

 

     

 

Here are details of the sideplates and some of the tooling.

 

 

And they all stack nicely into this box for transport to demo's (plus one or two other bits alongside them that all fit in the box)

 

 

The steel I used to make these was

 

Side plates and base plate 100mm x 6mm (Shape allows easy access to load and remove dies)

 

Spacers for sides were 1" square Bright bar

 

Die blocks were 50mm X 25mm Bright bar

 

(This was deliberate to allow for clearance of dies to body 0.40mm, no need for shims)

 

The die blocks were faced with Spring steel, or case hardened as appropriate for the task they were meant to do,

 

The block on the top varied as to what was laying around, and it is only sacrificial so can be easily replaced.

 

Hope this is of interest, it has served me well.

[Eddie Mullins]

A guillotine or similar is at the top of my to do list. I am wondering why the are typically built so beefy, when they seek to be performing the same function as a spring fuller with the exception of having replaceable dies. What am I missing?

 

The open 45 degree design like Frosty seems to me the more versatile. Pro's pr cons of selecting this style or the enclosed?

[John McPherson]

If you are using it alone, with a small one handed hammer that *never* misses, working on small stock, then 1/4" or 3/8" dies will move with less work. And 1/4" frame will be good enough. Nice and light for taking to demos and workshops.

 

But, if you have Grod, the energetic but inaccurate apprentice swinging a two handed sledge from the tips of his toes, a small frame holding small dies will be iron origami in short order. Beefy tools can even be used in presses and power hammers. Bigger tools can do bigger work, and if it never leaves the shop, fine.

 

Students can manage to mangle an anvil with a feather duster.....and then have the gall to put it on their resume' as an accomplishment!

[Eddie Mullins]

The Guillotine Anvil Tool is in the Blueprints section of IForgeIron

 

BP0065 Guillotine Anvil Tool
by Jr. Strasil - irnsrgn

 

I'm sure I am missing something obvious, but I can't find this blueprint. Can someone help point me in the right direction?

[Glenn]

BP0065 Guillotine Anvil Tool by Jr. Strasil - irnsrgn

 

 

Click Here

 

[Glenn]

A guillotine or similar is at the top of my to do list. I am wondering why the are typically built so beefy, when they seek to be performing the same function as a spring fuller with the exception of having replaceable dies. What am I missing?

 

In my opinion, the U shaped guillotine is unsupported at the top which makes that the weak point in the design. A closed rectangle is stronger due to the top being attached. Again, in my opinion each design benefits from the flying buttress, or any buttress for that matter. 

 

John is right, some one will try to use a 10 pound hammer on a one pound anvil and wonder why the anvil failed.

 

Always build heavier than you think you need. It will last longer and take the abuse of repeated NORMAL use.

[Eddie Mullins]

BP0065 Guillotine Anvil Tool by Jr. Strasil - irnsrgn

 

 

Click Here

 

Now I see said the blind man : ) . I was looking in the forums blueprints area. I didn't know about the "pages" blue print articles. I have more reading to do now! Thanks!

[John B]

A guillotine or similar is at the top of my to do list. I am wondering why the are typically built so beefy, when they seek to be performing the same function as a spring fuller with the exception of having replaceable dies. What am I missing?

 

The open 45 degree design like Frosty seems to me the more versatile. Pro's pr cons of selecting this style or the enclosed?

 

Mine was designed for my needs, the one I use is at 45 degrees to the anvil, and was made from stock I carried, and was also easy to reproduce for others, and I don't regard it as particularly "beefy" merely fit for purpose. easy to use, store, and transport to competitions, demo's or site work.

 

One of the main reasons I made this was to replace the need for a striker when making tenons etc, being brought up "old school" using top and bottom tools/dies this was usually a two man operation, working on my own I don't have that option, and it is far easier to use the helper as this orients the tools to exactly where I need them

 

I considered open dies but decided I did not at the time need one, and never had need for one, but that may just be me.

 

Spring fullers have their place, but mainly do only one function and you can end up with racks of them, taking up valuable workshop space,

[Quarry Dog]

...Grod, the energetic but inaccurate apprentice...

Is he related to Mongo, from Blazing Saddles?  Thank you John, my computer screen needed a bath anyway, although I think the Coca-Cola I was drinking might not clean as well as other products.  I imagine if he could knock a horse out with one punch, his great great uncle Grod could have taken out an anvil pretty quick.

[John McPherson]

Sorry 'bout the keyboard and monitor.

 

Too late to edit my last epistle, so here goes. I was a Troll before Al Gore invented the internet.

 

I have been accused of being Mongo. I once slugged a horse, before the movie came out. He was an hourly rental, who did not particularly want to work that day, he kept trying to kick, or side-step whenever I put one foot in the stirrup. He finally tried to bite me, so I put a fist behind his ear. You could hear the smack echo off the trees.  He turned and looked at me with the white showing all around his eyes. We were best buds after that.

 

 

[Quarry Dog]

So then Grod would be your nephew...  Quite the interesting family. :P

[Eddie Mullins]

Ah, I get it now, when Grod, Mongo or Trolls are around you must have tools beefy enough they want destroy them LOL.

 

Next question, why do many have bolt on plates / guides? Aren't the designs such that the dies can be changed without unbolting? I was thinking that if the same size stock is used for the spacer and the dies that polishing the face of the dies and interior surfaces where the dies contact would provide adequate clearance for a welded assembly.

[Glenn]

The tool is designed with a little wiggle room in the guides to allow the dies to move but still stay in alignment.  The dies (on the tools I have used) slide in from the top.  Any supports, buttresses, plates etc that are used, just make the tool stronger. 

 

There are some designs of this tool that are bolted together rather than being welded. Bolts make it easier to mass produce. The ones I have seen are top loading.