Francis Trez Cole Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 My last Job was excuitive chef and I was working on my master chef certification. The level is strickly controlled only about 100 at any time. The test is extream 10 days 18 hrs a day with the collective spread of food to be judged every day and the final buffet. The term master is loosely used by many cooks. I would agree that when you reconized by your piers. I would consider Francis Whitaker a master also Uri Hofi. There seems to be a standard set for a master bladesmith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnie Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Paul B, that would be a good description. He was doing a demo every 30 min.. He introduced himself to the crowd every time as a "Master Blacksmith". Opinions vary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratel10mm Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 I think both have value. I like & would aspire to (but likely never attain) the worshipful company's definition. I once asked Bob Oakes, the first smith I learned from, what it took to be a master smith. His answer; 'I suppose you'd call me a master smith, since this is my forge & I run it.' He wasn't being ego-centric by the way. What he meant was that as the owner of his company; which employs him, his son, a variable(?) number of smiths & allied trades, an apprentice (and boy can that kid smith!) and various younger smiths either gaining work experience or teaching specific courses on his behalf, he was the other definition of a master smith. So that meaning of the term 'Master' clearly has credibility. Note as I said that he sometimes has 'beginner' or 'junior / journeyman' smiths on work experience - this is one of the ways I'd pesonally judge any master tradesman - they're sufficiently comfortable in their own abilities, skills and business that they are willing to give new talent a 'hand up'. I doubt that Bob is alone in this, and I suggest another definition of master smith: Smiths who are willing to give budding smiths meaningful work and the credit for it, are masters in the martial arts aka Yoda style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 A master blacksmith is one who can make his product, market it, install it, and leave his clients feeling pleased. He can make mistakes, but knows how to fix them without anybody knowing they were ever made, and in such a way that he does not suffer financially. Ability in the forge is the starting point, but the greater part of the challenge is in the logistics of running a business that includes production, delivery and installation. I speak from my own standpoint as an ornamental blacksmith, but to me mastery is not just in being able to forge well, but having the confidence and accuracy that will insure the gate or railings will fit together, and will fit where it's meant to, and the finish will look good. I think mastery is about experience, years and years of it, and the confidence and efficiency that comes from that. And it gives me a headache just thinking about how far away I am from being good, let alone a master Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 IMHO, Dan hit the nail on the head - "Master" connotes someone who can make a living wage while being self-employed at a trade or craft. Too many trips out to the job to fix mistakes will break someone (I saw this at one business I worked for just out of college). Not quoting jobs correctly will break you - as will the host of other mistakes that affect all businesses. A "master" is someone who has been in their trade or art for a number of years, is respected by both their customers and peers, and has a thorough understanding of their business so they can make a profit. Hofi, Whitaker and a host of other smiths meet this description as do a plethora of other people who produce arts made by hand. Conversely, a "journeyman" can have all the skills of the trade but still needs to work in a few independent shops before standing alone. Some journeymen never get out of that classification and that's perfectly OK - they possess the mechanical skills to do the job but do not strive for the independence that makes the master. Furthermore, the ability to teach that trade has nothing to do with being a master - there are many examples of master craftsmen who cannot teach and many great teachers who cannot survive in the business world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian C. Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I am far from being what anyone would ever consider a "Master" smith. But I do know that I am the best blacksmith on my street. (big old grin & a wink) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakwoodironworks Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 In his book, The Blacksmith's Craft: The Legacy of Francis Whitaker by George Dixon, there is a quote from Francis that says "After twenty years you may think that you are a Master...forty years later you realize that you were just crossing the threshold." As great as Francis was, he made the comment that even in his 90's, he was always learning something new. He was a Master Smith if there ever was one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lumpkins Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 I would love just spending a day with a master Blacksmith in his shop watching, and taking notes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Perhaps we should also make a distinction between "Master Smith" and "Forge Master"? I have heard the term "Forge Master" used as titles for club members having the responsibility to manage either the "historic forge" of the museum, or the educational forge area of the classroom building, who oversees safety, usage and other issues and not necessarily their skill level. I would guess it would be easy to mishear someone say Forge Master and think they heard Master Smith. Is "Forge Master" a standard term within blacksmithing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Forge Master is a standard term in the industry, usually the industrial type of forging, and so may be a "Master" smith in a particular forging discipline in a production facility, I would put it the equivalent of a Foreman, or Line Manager depending on the size of the shop they are Forge Master over In a historic forge, they may just be responsible for looking after the place with little practical knowledge of forging or the craft. Respect is in the eye of the beholder and the title earned rather than given. Most smith's I know who would fall into the category of a Master Smith, would not readily apply it to themselves, and all realise that no matter how much they do know, there is always more to learn about the craft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 I think one can never call themselves a master, but can only be deemed so by they're peers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecelticforge Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 I was told by a museum curator here in the states that in the USA to become a master means a general consensus of one's peers. The guild I belonged to billed me as a master. I agree that I may pass some of the European guilds, but some I promise, I would not pass. The small branch of iron work I do is just that, a small branch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urnesBeast Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 ... The small branch of iron work I do is just that, a small branch. You must be a master for doing branches, I am still trying to get good at leaves... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 The only master smith I know personally is a Master Bladesmith, named Chris Marks. He will be the first to tell you that there are a hundred or so smiths with hammer skills, technical skills, power hammer skills that he is amazed and humbled by. Please correct me if I am wrong but, I don't think that there has ever in the United states been a generalized Master Blacksmith. I don't think that the title master in europe is awarded as a generealized Master Smith, but I could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welder19 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 There really should be testing to determine ones rank as a blacksmith, there is for nearly every other profession. Years ago, I believe, that the master smith in a shop would draw up papers stating ones classification, apperntice, journeyman, mastersmith, this way if he was to leave and go to another town there was verification of his rank and ability, but I don't think that really goes on anymore. welder19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons lair Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Just who and how would set the standard? Ours is a unique field, There are few if any here who are old masters. Shall the standard say NO modern tools NO modern materials. Or will the smith with brick forge hammer and anvil compete with a gas forge power hammer and CNC equipment. I think we need to worry about doing the best we can to make ourselves happy. I really don't care if you like what I do or the way I do it or not. If I am happy and my client is happy. I don't need any other approval or test. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double_edge2 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 i think.... nowdays, would be able to populate, from scratch/scrap and raw materials, a capable steel workshop, producing anything from the needed up to and including structural, to the decoratively wanted, with the perfection and soundness quite quite often seen in wonderfull work. just my thought, short version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medieval Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Germany has a state certified blacksmithing program. In order to call yourself a blacksmith (and offer your services as such) you have to complete the schooling and testing. It includes design, as well as personal skills at the craft. Like in the U.S. you have to be state certified in order to practice the engineering profession. To own/run a blacksmithing buisness you are considered a "master". I would like to know how accurate this is........Are there any members of IFI from Germany (or other "olde world" countries) that can set us straight? :confused: As with many topics on this (and other) forum(s), there are many who put in their 2c worth, but drift from the original question. Mark Asprey explained what the requirements are for a bronze rating in the WOB (?), but failed to explain the other rankings. I am seeing the ranking of bronze as a lesser ranking than silver or gold. Do you know the requirements for the other 2 rankings? Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 If you refer back to the Worshipful Company of Blacksmiths' website, under the awards section there are short explanations of the awards. The link below should take you there.Directory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 When I first started blacksmithing in 1972 I spent a lot of time studying the history of blacksmithing through old books and spending time with retired smiths who were in their eighties. I believe there is more than one interpretation of what a master smith is depending on the circumstances, area and date. From my readings a smith started out as an apprentice to a master smith. After years of working with this smith it came time for the apprentice to produce a master works to be judged by his peers, which the master smith would assemble from the area. If the piece met the criteria the apprentice would become a master smith, at which time he would take off on his own to open his own shop, usually in another area. This procedure was used in Europe and as the smiths came to America they brought this system with them. Samuel Yellin, the most noted and proficient smith was from Poland and at this juncture he didn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons lair Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I would have to say when a majority of your peers say you are a master you probably are. To claim you are is arrogance at its worse. As a welder with 40+yrs weldin micro to massive. Areo space to submarines aircraft to race cars. am I a master I think not.I will never be a master. there are too many other things to do. If my client is happy I am happy.x Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I was traveling with two friends through Scotland not too many years ago, and stopped to see an elder smith in Closeburn, Scotland. The man was Edward Martin, now deceased, who had probably shod more Clydesdales that anyone on two hind legs. He was also a fine artist blacksmith, and he drove us to some surrounding villages to show us some of his work, most of it in and around churches. Visiting in his living room, he brought forth a gold medal, perhaps 3.5 inches in diameter. He said that he had been called to London in the year 2000 by the Worshipful Company of Blacksmiths. He was presented with the medal, reportedly only the fourth such award to be given in the history of the Company. Edward said it was the third given in the last 100 years. On the medal was written, "Awarded to Edward Martin, SUPREME MASTER BLACKSMITH." 'Nuff said!http://www.turleyforge.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalbender Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 do you have a fluent understanding of the core skills do you own and maintain a complete shop and use it as your primary source of employment do your customers return and recommend your work to others have you trained at least 3 apprentices that have subsequently gone on to make their living as a full time smith with the knowledge you imparted as the primary base of their success? do you share your knowledge willingly and help others in need are you a inspiration to those in our profession? then you are, in my eyes anyway, a master smith. I consider myself a very competent journeyman..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Beagle Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 I've worked at several wrought iron shops. One of them was I was just a green welder coming straight out trade school and knew very little of the craft. And I found the owner of the shop who shall go nameless was very arrogant and obnoxious and he'd consider himself a master. I remember channel 13 pbs came out and did a documentary and the showboating was on full display. But the main guy under the owner who I had already mention was an exceptional smith in fact he was under a contract with the owner It's just my opinion and don't mean squat but the shop foreman "Ken" was many times the craftsman as the obnoxious owner ever was and yet very humble. I doubt he continued working for him for too long. I didn't exactly hang around to find out.. A couple of jobs later I worked for an old smith from Russia and his family had own Dallas Iron works for since the depression and He was a dream boss...... He used to sit in his little office drawing stair rail blueprints and at the end of the day we'd share a beer and he'd tell me about" The Battle of the Bulge" and how German tanks were better than ours and how you could only take em out by blowing up the their tracks.. I've known a couple of old wise men who I would consider masters and a few of young men like my friend Ken who I would consider one as well.. But perhaps the wanna be masters should just do like the Samurai and duel it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 In most cases the owner is master of a shop and it doesn't have anything to do with skill with whatever the shop produces. My shop, my rules, I'm master in my shop. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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