Anderson G. Phillips Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 One problem I see is: What pressure do you run the utility hammers at? It appears that many Big Blu's are operated at 175 psi and normal for an IronKiss is 100 psi. The other day I was using my IronKiss at 40 psi and smacking pretty good too! Many utilities won't even run at 40 psi. What would be fair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderson G. Phillips Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Has any one talked yet about using a vicors or rockwell style load test 0 blank and pin to test a hammer? do the test using parts of a system that is already out there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscar C Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I actually made a mistake. I supply the Big Blu with full tank pressure (175 PSI) through a 1" 200 PSI rated jack hammer air hose, but the pressure is knocked down to 150 PSI by the regulator, filter, oiler on the hammer. The KA is running on 175PSI though. I had also thought about the blows per minute, and hammer controll issues, as far as BPM Big Blu claims 0-225 on the 155, and on the KA it depends on how fast you are with your foot, but I would guess that it would be hard to even keep it at 180 BPM. As far as controll.. I don't really know that we can devise a test to measure controll because that all really depends on the operator expierience, condition of the machine, temperature of the machine, etc. I think Mike-hr came up with a great full power test, but as for controll, I am willing to accept the educated opinion of other Power Hamer operators. I know that I have no problems drawing 1/4" stock to a fine point with any of my hammers, or delivering a single light tap, or full force blow, which is a little tricky with the mechanical hammers but a breeze with the air hammers (pun intended!!) well this is the kind of response we thought we would get. that is the reason we recorded the video and posted it to the you tube. 175 psi?...i wish we had that in the shop..we're pretty sure jose's is a mk3(one of the old qc hammers.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Man i'd feel really stiffed if I bought a hammer that was THAT obsolete in a few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderson G. Phillips Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Man i'd feel really stiffed if I bought a hammer that was THAT obsolete in a few years. Every year the car companies come out with new cars, just because you bought last year and the new model get better gas mileage and has a bit more power doesn’t mean your car is junk. The Quick change hammers are great hammers, but in the hundreds of hammers made since then have been improvements. This is the slow and steady march of progress. If it seems fast it is only because BLU put out allot of hammers. I only sought to point out that the reason for the discrepancy in power was not due to quality control issues but rather two models undergoing the same challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 The actual operating pressure is really of no consequence. I was just wondering what pressure we would use. I would guess what ever the manufacturer says is normal for their hammer. I designed the KA hammer for 100 psi. Never tried running one on 175, but it sure makes a difference in what it can do. I'm glad to hear that the BB is making steady improvements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 a "bit more power"? it's the 155 model, and it only outbeat the 65 by .03 and .07 I'd say that's more than "a bit more power". I agree with Grant it's great to see improvement, but does bigblu inform they're past customers with older model hammers of these drastic improvements, or just try to sell them a new hammer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderson G. Phillips Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 A few years ago I had an air compressor I felt just wasn’t living up to my expectations so I pondered on the science of CFM and the art of plumbing that goes in to a blacksmiths shop and finally I decided to call the manufacture. They gave me a simple test. The tech that was helping me said that if I isolated the compressor tank from my air system and started the compressor it should take no less than 6minutes to fill and not more than 7. Tests like that give you are an important tool and can help provide piece of mind when you’re wondering if your hammer is hitting as hard as it could or should be. With an air hammer there are some many variables past just the hammer its self- how is it anchored, are there any anomalies in the air system and is the hammer getting enough air? Then to go a step further with an enclosed hammer, there are any number of things that could be chipping away at your power and performance. A good power hammer test isn’t just a way to get out the old ego measuring stick, but it could be a good tool for people installing new hammers or rebuilding old ones. I think to get a good test you have to all but take the dies out of the equation. That is if all you’re out to measure is the power produced by the hammer. You could do this by making a compact tool that would fit in-between the dies and make an indentation on a piece of stock with a known hardness. Check out the Vickers hardness tester: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_hardness_test A machine that occupied too much of my time while in school (the good old days a youth waited in making knives and other pointy things) The principal is no less than driving a punch in to a bar. What do you think of this as a way to test a hammer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderson G. Phillips Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 a "bit more power"? it's the 155 model, and it only outbeat the 65 by .03 and .07 I'd say that's more than "a bit more power". I agree with Grant it's great to see improvement, but does bigblu inform they're past customers with older model hammers of these drastic improvements, or just try to sell them a new hammer? You sound good and excited about the improvements, are you volunteering to make some cold calls? The new hammers are better, that doesn’t mean there anything wrong with the older ones. Of course there is an upgrade kit is available for sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Gomez Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 well this is the kind of response we thought we would get. that is the reason we recorded the video and posted it to the you tube. 175 psi?...i wish we had that in the shop..we're pretty sure jose's is a mk3(one of the old qc hammers.. I've been sitting by, quietly watching this thread, since Mike and I made the argument to keep it going. I guess that it's time to jump back in. For the guys at BLU... the hammer that I used to perform the test is not 7 or 8 as you guessed. Here is the "Just got my new hammer thread" According to this, the hammer hit my door in January of 2008, and the "Test" was performed by me in June of that same year. The hammer was a mere six months old then, and at the time of this writing the hammer has been in my possession for a month over three years. If one were to scrutinize my post, they would notice that I stated that I *supply* the hammer with full tank preassure (175 PSI) through a 1 inch hose, after which it is regulated to 140 PSI at the hammer. Therefore the hammer is operating on *precisely* what I was told by the manufacturer the hammer required. Furthermore, it is being pushed by a 7.5 HP Ingersoll Rand compressor purchased from BLU. The test was performed with the stroke set to maximum, on factory flat dies with 1/8" radiused edges. the stock was fed into the dies long ways (in order to achieve the required 2"), and according to my pyrometer the metal was sitting at 2350 degrees F. It has already been noted by numerous others that the dies used in the BLU test are closer to gentle drawing dies (As can be seen in video # 1 at 4:22 and again at 6:42) than they are to flat, but they would have me believe that they have made engineering changes to the hammer that afford them enough power to beat one of their own hammers, manufactured only a few years earlier, By .217 inches. This is an honest question... what have you changed on the hammers since I purchaced mine, and if it truely functions this much better, can these engineering changes be retro-fitted onto my hammer? The original purpose of this thread was to figure out if one's hammer is operating at the peak of it's ability, as compared to others of it's type. Which I am being told, by the manufacturer, that mine is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 You sound good and excited about the improvements, are you volunteering to make some cold calls? The new hammers are better, that doesn’t mean there anything wrong with the older ones. Of course there is an upgrade kit is available for sale. I couldn't be less excited about a hammer I don't even own, besides, you guys seem to be able to handle advertising all over the place by yourselves just fine lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderson G. Phillips Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 But you could be the proud owner of…… no no just kidding, back to the task at hand. Power hammer test. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senft Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 You sound good and excited about the improvements, are you volunteering to make some cold calls? The new hammers are better, that doesn’t mean there anything wrong with the older ones. Of course there is an upgrade kit is available for sale. What are the changes made in the upgrade and what does the kit consist of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 5 Cwt Massey 5 blows .120 in center .090 on edges, dies are due to be cleaned up and are a little hollow. I didn't do 10 blows as I felt it would be dangerous basically beating dies against each other at full power. I did do 5 blows on a piece without heating it as well it came out to .570 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy C Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 a "bit more power"? it's the 155 model, and it only outbeat the 65 by .03 and .07 I'd say that's more than "a bit more power". I agree with Grant it's great to see improvement, but does bigblu inform they're past customers with older model hammers of these drastic improvements, or just try to sell them a new hammer? My buddy, Steve Barringer, has a Big Blu 110 and a155. He has upgraded them several times including this most recent valving improvement. The most recent improvement has made the two hammers quite a bit more powerful with quicker cycling although they ran just fine before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Well, I finally tried this with my Bradley Guided Helve last night and obtained the following restuls: Starting size: 1.008" After 5 blows: 0.408" After 10 blows: 0.259" The hammer is a 300 lb model but has a ram + die weight of 460#. I had the stroke length set at its maximum limit and at rest there was 2" of space between the dies with the ram at the bottom of the stroke. The hammer is set up to run at about 200 blows per minute at maximum treadle depression. I tried twice to get the hammer up to full speed before putting the stock between the dies, but I could not accurately positon the stock to get exactly 2" on the die, so I just positioned the stock and then started the hammer. This means that the first and possibly second blow delivered to the work piece were not as forcefull as later blows. The stock was heated in a gas forge with I had cranked up for several hours prior to the test to both warm up the shop and hammer and to ensure the forge itself was at maximum operating temp. This forge is fairly large with brick floor so it does take a while to reach a uniform temperture. Judging purely by eye I would say that the temp was well in excess of 2300F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyT Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 What are the changes made in the upgrade and what does the kit consist of? Sounds like a reasonable question- I wonder also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Best in 5 blows: Massey 5cwt - .115 Nazel 3B - .308 Say Mak 60KG - .320 Bradley guide helve 460# ram weight - .408 Anyang 88# - .430 Larry's Say Mak - .462 MacBruce's shop built 250# - .500 Big Blu 155# - .529 Sahinler 110# - .543 Massey 5cwt cold steel - .570TIED{250# Murray Mechanical - .583{Say Mak 50KG - .583 IronKiss Octagon 100 - .586 Big Blu 110# - .587 EF Thumann's Model D 125# - .605 Tim's wore out say mak 60KG - .603 Bradley 500# guided helve - .610 KA150 - .691 Big Blu 155 MAX - .705 Big Blu 65# - .735 KA75 - .773 1909 MacGowan and Finnigan "Perfect" 80# - .825 Little Giant 25 - .873 Kane and Roach 85# - .877 Don S's Rusty hammer 34# - .906Best in 10 blows Nazel 3B - .155 Larry's Say Mak - .248 Big Blu 155# - .258 Bradley guide helve 460# ram weight - .259 Say Mak 60KG - .260 MacBruce's shop built 250# - .280 Big Blu 110# - .294 Anyang 88# - .300 Tim's wore out say mak 60KG - .320 EF Thumann's Model D 125# - .328 IronKiss Octagon 100 - .360 250# Murray Mechanical - .383 Bradley 500# guided helve - .489 Sahinler 110# - .397 Big Blu 155 MAX - .475 Anyang 55# - .545 KA75 - .565 Big Blu 65# - .572 1909 MacGowan and Finnigan "Perfect" 80# - .630 KA150 - .636 Kane and Roach 85# - .721 Don S's Treadle Hammer 66# -.780 Don S's Rusty hammer 34# - .832 Little Giant 25# - .835 current standing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Gomez Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 You sound good and excited about the improvements, are you volunteering to make some cold calls? The new hammers are better, that doesn’t mean there anything wrong with the older ones. Of course there is an upgrade kit is available for sale. Did we scare Mr. Phillips away or is it that there is no real answer to the upgrade question? 8 days with no response leads me to believe that I will have to call BLU directly in order to get any kind of answer to my question.....Hmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Gomez Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 I just got off of the phone with Josh at Big BLU. He was very helpfull and immediatly explained the operating principal of the upgrade. I will be sending him pictures of my 155 so that we can figure out the upgrades needed and then I'll re run the "test" post upgrade. I'll be sure to let you all know how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyT Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I just got off of the phone with Josh at Big BLU. He was very helpfull and immediatly explained the operating principal of the upgrade. I will be sending him pictures of my 155 so that we can figure out the upgrades needed and then I'll re run the "test" post upgrade. I'll be sure to let you all know how it goes. Thanks to you for being able to find out- seems like blu man group will not speak to the forum about their black magic. :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderson G. Phillips Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Sorry for the absence, between busy work and my new daughter Ferrous sometimes my hobbies suffer. You can get in touch with BLU hammers @ 1 828 437 5348. I can only speak to some of the science of the improvements as I am only a small part of the team that works on the hammers, but it is science and not black magic, well mostly science. There are Four hammers (2x155#, 1x110# and 1x65#) set up to run in the BLU shop in Morganton NC, ( Also they will be set up at the Madison GA meeting) So if you want to try out a hammer or reverse engineer one they are there waiting. But you’re on your own for the engineering. I will post up a link to our YouTube explanation of how the new hammer runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderson G. Phillips Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 hi all after 15 years in my abusive hands the sow block on my little giant 100 has moved about 3/4 inch will not hammer back and i really dont want to disturb wedges, hammer and block always work loose and dont stay still dont need some other problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Anderson, Am I reading it right that you have basically doubled the blow energy of the 2011 Blu hammers by adding a second valve to them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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