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heat treating punches and chisels and dealing with idiots


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Hello,
I was down at NAPA today talking to the counter guy about my chisels and one of the local farmers asked if I'd back them when used on a grade 8 bolt and nut, and if they where heat treated the whole lenght. I said "No, chisels aren't made for that, and that you didn't heat treat a chisel the whole lenght, just a 1" to 1 1/2" back from the cutting tip.". He then went on to tell me and a couple of other guys that had came into the store, that my chisels where "junk" and that they where worthless. Luckly the counter guy spoke up and said the chisel that NAPA sold wasn't warrentied after using them in a way that they wheren't designed for, like a grade 8 bolt. I also countered that I could easily prove him wrong, and if he would just wait 5 minutes I'd got get some referance books, (Henry Ford's 1941 Shop Theroies, ect.). He said he knew what was right and that he didn't have time to xxxx with me. Just so you know, I was ready to box! After he left the counter guy said he was a idiot which I fully agreed with. I then made sure (in front of everybody) that he got a free chisel and center punch for his tool box knowing that he'd report (and the guys in the store would ask about them) back on how well they worked. He's helped me sell some lead hammers using the same deal. "Free hammer and tell anybody that wants one to call me." This works good for us. I get good advertising, and testing, and he gets good tools for free.
Now I looked in my ref books when I got home to see if there was a spec for cold chisels on just what they would or wouldn't cut and the general spec was "used for chipping, soft metals, and thin sheets" I feel I was right even though I wasn't looking for a fight with anybody, but I'll be xxxxx if I'm going to stand by while some idiot bad mouthed me on a subject when he had less than no info on the subject.

Anybody care to comment on this adventure?


Edit: Words edited

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Sounds like he just wanted to fight - I probably would have smacked him and gotten hauled off - I applaud your restraint.

BTW, I worked around a tool and die shop for a long time. We cut Grade 8 bolts with carbide - not high speed steel so a good chisel would still not work on a hard bolt.

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Did the old farmer wear his hat sort of a little sideways and back just a tad? I have found this to be the secret badge of honor to the master level of know-it-alls. I love these guys for their ability to have an answer to anything.We should embrace them. Oh by the way. Being that I am an idiot myself, I resent this clown being called one. :lol: Enjoy.

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Sounds like the old windbag likes screwing things up, I have been a mechanic and a blacksmith for quite a few years and , never , never , never ever have I had any reason to even try and chisel a grade 8 bolt, its not like the head rounds off easily or something. Sounds like he already knew everything anyway, not even worth your breath or your time. I had a blacksmithing teacher some years ago from Japan, one of the things he told me that really stuck was. Learning is like drinking tea if your tea cup is always full, you can't ever taste any different tea. When going into a new learning situation make sure your cup is empty, and drink deeply when the lesson is over. Obviously this know-it-all village idiot's tea cup runneth over :roll:

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This reminds me of a thing yesteryearforge told me when I started learning under him. He smiled and said the ball pein hammer is a blacksmith's hammer and the actual ball pein is to smack the idiots in the forehead who think other wise.....I always laugh about that when dumb people show their face! haven't hit anyone yet, but I'm still young! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Peyton

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OK, I am an idiot, but why can't you use a chisel on a grade 8 bolt or nut?
I have used my chisel ( that I made) in this way. Not harm done other than cutting off a rusted nut. I also use grade 8 bolts for the inserts in my nail headers. BUt I do anneal them first. 8)


Ralph

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Ralph,

I think it depends on whether it's hardened. The tool shop I referenced working in had a wide assortment of #8 hardened bolts. We occasionally had to turn a head down a bit to fit in odd-sized counter sunk holes in mold plates. We'd chuck them in the lathe and take off whatever was necessary but high speed steel would not cut them consistently - only carbide. Sometimes, the HS bit would cut part way, then go dull or start squealing.

I think something that hard would wreck most chisels.

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By gum, I think we have an idea for a fun test at a hammer-in or at Quad State or something. If we can work out the details. Hmmmmm, I have to dwell on this a little. By the way, one of the sayings I've used for years is, "I don't have to worry weather or not the next guy is an idiot. He'll let me know soon enough." Brad

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I was gonna say, why not make a chisel that WILL cut a grade 8 bolt and survive? Go buy a few and just try it. Maybe you'll need to switch over to an S series? 4140? Perhaps it's an edge geometry question... I dunno but I'd have fun trying. Isn't that how we got where we are today with our metals? Necessity being the mother of invention and all that :D

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Assuming grade 8 bolts are hardened as recieved, then my chisel did cut one shortly after I made it. It was made from car coil spring. 5160 I think?
I will try it again as soon as I can get out and get stuff.

Now wasn't part of a machinist's final test to take a chunk of steel and chisel it into a 1 inch cube?
Who all could do that now? I know I could not. At least not yet..... Never had a reason to but now I think I might be talking myself into this test, assuming my arm will let me.... 8)

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I have chisels that would and have cut Grade 8 bolts, you just gotta pound the xxxx out of em for about an hour. And they WILL lose their edge and will need to dressed. But that is such a brute force way to do the work.

The real question is why you would use a chisel and not a cutting torch. 20 seconds with torch or 60 minutes with a hammer and chisel.

The guy is an idiot and needs a ball pein to the forhead. Or perhaps that is what caused his lunacy in the first place. :D


Edit: words edited

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I have a friend who used to be the smith at a historical site and told me the story about the time they were having a special "kid's day" offering hands-on activities. Well he cut out some brass and was having kids dish brass ladle bowls.

One father *demanded* that his 4 year old be able to participate even after the smith told him he was too young. So he sets a piece of brass on the dishing stump and gets out a nice light ballpeen for the kid to use. The father crouches behind the kid and leans over as the child picks up the hammer and swings it high hitting his father on his forehead right between the eyes...

Upon recovery the father admitted that perhaps the child was a tad too young...

Thomas

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COLD CHISELS: If you are going to beat on a chisel hard enough to cut a grade 8 bolt.

Make sure the top of the chisel is soft enough that you don't put a piece of it in your face, eye, or abdomen. There have been lots of people hurt doing just a thing as that.

Chuck

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When driving all the holes for my wife's studio walls into the concrete slab I bought a brand new star drill at the store, (don't faint Sandpile), I found that the striking end was too soft and ended up going through over an inch of it doing the holes, not that many of them and only about 2000 hits per hole on the tough ones.

Thomas

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I have chisels that would and have cut Grade 8 bolts, you just gotta pound the xxxx out of em for about an hour. And they WILL lose their edge and will need to dressed. But that is such a brute force way to do the work.

The real question is why you would use a chisel and not a cutting torch. 20 seconds with torch or 60 minutes with a hammer and chisel.



OH I do not know. Perhaps you are in a National Historical Site working in the public eye and you have a job issued to you involvig cutting a bolt off. Seein as how this place is supposed to look like 1845 a cutting torch is not correct nor is a bandsaw.
Why is it the way of so many smiths to immediately spout off about how something can not be done? I am rather tired of it.
A few years back I was talking of doing slumped glass and iron work. I was told by too many smiths that it could not be done woth out computer controlled heat treat cooling ovens.
I disagreed as while living in Europe I saw too many pices that were over 500 years old that had precisly what I wanted. I am certain that they did not have the computer controlled ovens.
So I went ahead and figured out how to do it.
Remember being a smith is not about whipping out a torch. It is about figuring out how to do things that others can't. Moving hot metal is sometimes just a by-product of this mind set..

:x
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