Is it over ?

[SmoothBore]

Yeah, ... if I thought I needed a high performance "survival / combat" knife, ... I'd think about it some more,  ... and then make sure the trusty old P-08 was cleaned and oiled.

[Steve Sells]

12 hours ago, gote said:

I think that you are forgetting one point. To many - at least on this side of the pond - it has a value to know that, whatever the implement is, knife or candle stick, is made from repurpoused material. It gives a feeling of not overusing the planet's resources. Of course Glenn is right but I should think that 99% of the tools made by smiths are not used in critical situations.    

most steel is recycled. we are able to recycle 100% of used steel.  Very little is newly smelted any more, its just more cost effective than digging for ores. what was forgotten ?

[ThomasPowers]

"Hype" is part of selling points for certain markets and having a "personal recycling" aspect can make the sale.  Blacksmiths have been recycling their metal for over 2000 years now and I treasure a few pieces I have found that are particularly well or oddly done.

If it works well for his purposes and he's telling it like it is then Iron Poet's doing it right!

As for forgotten craft; I've been attending a blacksmithing conference with 900 attendees about 2 decades before those shows started. Craft revivals seem to run on a cyclical basis and I've lived through at least two turns of the wheel myself (Though NOT the Arts and Crafts Movement of the early 1900's)

[Anachronist58]

"(Though NOT the Arts and Crafts Movement of the early 1900's)"

You sure about that, Thomas?

[Glenn]

Recycled steel is cost effective. Dump in a bunch of stuff, melt it down, take a sample for analysis and dump in what ever more it needs to match the spec of that batch. This is why you can sometimes get hard spots or differences from one end to the other end of the same 20 foot piece of steel, it did not get completely mixed. The final batch and pour should meet the specifications for the type metal being produced, whether it is mild steel, tool steel, or what ever. If the client needs documantation and paperwork, contact the manufacture of the metal and ask for analysis of that specific heat or batch of metal. They have it on file, somewhere.

I have requested the analysis of coal. The fellow opened a file cabinet at the coal yard, ask which pile, and pulled the coal analysis for that pile of coal.

Repurposed steel is cost effective also. You need something metal to be reformed or reshaped. Grab something that YOU think will work, get it hot and beat on it, reshaping the metal as you wish. 

Need a specific metal or metal for a specific mission critical project, then buy new metal. There is a paper trail and analysis on file for that metal, no guess work involved. Today the cost of the metal is small compared to everything else that goes into the project, including labor, overhead, etc

[Steve Sells]

18 minutes ago, Anachronist58 said:

"(Though NOT the Arts and Crafts Movement of the early 1900's)"

You sure about that, Thomas?

but we have the cave drawing proving Thomas was present for it

[Marc1]

3 hours ago, SmoothBore said:

Yeah, ... if I thought I needed a high performance "survival / combat" knife, ... I'd think about it some more,  ... and then make sure the trusty old P-08 was cleaned and oiled.

Somehow your post and your avatar are  ... mm ... incongruent ha ha

Gote, sure there is a feel good factor in what the user may think is recycling. Personally I believe the "green" factor is so overstated, overused, exaggerated and has so many different hidden agendas that has lost all his appeal.  Then there is the fact that steel is recovered from the rubbish with a great big magnet and very little ends up as oxide back in the ground. And that is not necessarily a waste either since nothing is really lost ... not to mention that the deposit of iron ore are so vast that will last without recycling for several millennia. 

I doubt however that the potential beginner blacksmith is losing sleep over the provenience of that piece of junk he found under the house or that thinking about the amount of carbon, chromium, nickel, or other addition to the metal should make him decide to toss it and buy new instead. Junk is free most of the time and it is that allure, together with a bunch of other reasons, not the smallest being the fact that it is possible to start blacksmithing with not much money at all, that allows TV shows to resurrect interest from time to time. 

We should welcome it in any way shape or form. 

In my opinion of course. 

[bigb]

It's not over till the fat anvil prices sink.

[JHCC]

4 hours ago, bigb said:

It's not over till the fat anvil prices sink.

When that day comes, we'll all be singing a different tune.

(Of course, everybody who bought at inflated prices will probably hang on until they've lost hope of recouping their investments and are willing to sell at a loss. That could take a while.)

[Marc1]

8 hours ago, bigb said:

It's not over till the fat anvil prices sink.

True ... and don't forget to seasonally adjust to avoid hitting rock bottom ... 

[gote]

15 hours ago, Steve Sells said:

most steel is recycled. we are able to recycle 100% of used steel.  Very little is newly smelted any more, its just more cost effective than digging for ores. what was forgotten ?

I try to refer to customer's feelings Steve.

[SmoothBore]

15 hours ago, Marc1 said:

Somehow your post and your avatar are  ... mm ... incongruent ha ha

Thanks, ... enigmatic is my "go to" position. 

[ThomasPowers]

He cleaned up a *bunch* for that Avatar picture...and we are so ever grateful! now to get him the "riddle wrapped in a mystery" for his lunch...

 

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

On 12/3/2016 at 5:02 PM, Iron Poet said:

There is nothing wrong with using scrap metal as long as you know how it reacts and how to properly work it. For instance I'm a big fan of using brushhog blades as I can get them for free and the fact that they're 5160.

There is no reason to shill out of stuff that can be gotten for free.

Are you sure they are 5160? There is one company that supplies many of the manufacturers and they use a propriety steel alloy with a high boron content. Austenizing is the method of heat treating.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

As to the "fad" of smithing. I don't think it is totally over, as I still see a lot of newbie action on other sites.  Maybe once the TV shows have run their course it will die down faster. Right now I see a lot of people riding the cash train for the equipment, when that slows down I will say it is dying down. Prices have stalled out in some areas, but other areas are still asking $5 a pound for anvils. 

I have seen this happen with firearms, and parts over the years. For awhile the old iron target sights like Marble-Goss were hot ticket items.

Some would call me stupid for not cashing in the equipment I have, but I look at things with a long range eye. I don't care about the value now because I would rather help others with them instead of cashing them in. I have used a couple of my anvils as loaners, as well as extra tongs. Helping others who truly have an interest in this craft is more rewarding to me than the cash they may bring. 

I would like to see an arts and crafts revival, and I love the free flowing Art Nouveau style, but that would mean that more people than not will have to shed the new is better attitude. Technology is here to stay, but arts and crafts will still hold a niche in society.

 

[Buzzkill]

It ain't over until the portly woman breaks out in song.  I haven't heard her yet.

[ThomasPowers]

I'm just really happy that I tooled up during the "slack" years and in the "Blacksmith's Happy Hunting Grounds", Central OH.  I can coast as far as tooling goes; maybe even have enough for all 7 grandkids to get a complete kit...

[notownkid]

The prices will  tank (the large lady will break out in song) 1 month before I decide to disperse my shop always happens that way.  No I'm not ready yet nor close to it.  

[Iron Poet]

On 12/7/2016 at 3:08 PM, BIGGUNDOCTOR said:

Are you sure they are 5160? There is one company that supplies many of the manufacturers and they use a propriety steel alloy with a high boron content. Austenizing is the method of heat treating.

I have 4 blades that are about 1" thick in places that I've been cutting chucks out of. They've all reacted the same when I forged them and during heat treatment, none of the tools I've made out of them failed, so I must be doing something right.

[Judson Yaggy]

I have to respectfully disagree with the theme and general consensus of this thread.  Have we (the collective we) not been lamenting the demise of blacksmithing in particular and the decline of hand making things in general for something like 75 years now?  Suddenly one facet of our diverse craft gets a spot light shone on it for a few minuets and all we can do is complain about enthusiastic beginners who's main fault has been to grow up in a largely anti-making anti-handmade society that we have all been participating in our whole lives?  

Used anvils, tongs, hammers, forges, drill presses, power hammers, etc have gone from being priced as literally trash to moderately above scrap price, with just a few rare examples of exquisite workmanship, historic value, or authentic collectable rarity going for near or above ACTUAL REPLACEMENT VALUE.  The marketplace is quite clear on what a new quality anvil costs.  99% of used gear goes for less than new price, so whatever we pay for used gear is still a good price even if it is more expensive than it was yesterday or 20 years ago. The paradigm of an old timer is to expect below scrap prices, and the paradigm of a new guy is to call anything below new price a deal.  New guy feels good about paying not quite full price for an undervalued tool, old guy just gets to complain.

Sure, answering basic questions over and over can be annoying.  But if one in a thousand of the millions of people that have been introduced to forging metal thru the cheesy "reality" knife making shows actually get interested and involved with the craft then I call that a win for us.  It means blacksmithing is not dead or dying.  Once folks get over the "I wanna make a sword" thing then they either get really into smithing and become valued members of our little society or they get bored and go away.  The interesting ones seem to be the people that stick around.  I can't count the number of great conversations I've had with guys that started out as wannabe swordsmiths that stuck it out for a few years of learning and THEN got sucked into some other very fascinating aspect of our craft.  After 25 years of smithing I'm amazed at and grateful for the little nuggets of information that beginners are able to glean out of the literature or from focused experimentation, and if we didn't have a flow of new guys willing to make mistakes we would have ossified into a truly dead craft back in the 1960's.  

20 years ago when I told people I was a blacksmith they would say "A what?"  These days they say "What kind of blacksmith?"   Even if as an architectural smith I have to answer some knife making questions to pay for that kind of progress... well, fine by me.  

[Iron Poet]

58 minutes ago, Judson Yaggy said:

Used anvils, tongs, hammers, forges, drill presses, power hammers, etc have gone from being priced as literally trash to moderately above scrap price, with just a few rare examples of exquisite workmanship, historic value, or authentic collectable rarity going for near or above ACTUAL REPLACEMENT VALUE.  The marketplace is quite clear on what a new quality anvil costs.  99% of used gear goes for less than new price, so whatever we pay for used gear is still a good price even if it is more expensive than it was yesterday or 20 years ago. The paradigm of an old timer is to expect below scrap prices, and the paradigm of a new guy is to call anything below new price a deal.  New guy feels good about paying not quite full price for an undervalued tool, old guy just gets to complain.

I'm pretty new at this myself but I wholeheartedly welcome as many people to try blacksmithing as possible because they will most likely be buying new equipment, and as most of them probably won't stick around that will lead to a bigger aftermarket of cheap tools especially in areas that have been picked clean already.

[Marc1]

I don't quite see the relevance of used tools market fuelled by newbies. Someone selling his tools is someone who has given up, hardly something to look forward to.

Yet I must agree with Judson on his sentiment in relation to a revival. Welcome them any way you can.

Cooking was a boring second class occupation for dubious characters until TV shows made it popular. It is cooking shows that have changed the food experience in UK, and Australia to an extent and with a speed no one ever expected.

There is a lot to be gained from renewed interest even when it is not from museum curators and purists. 

[JHCC]

5 hours ago, Marc1 said:

There is a lot to be gained from renewed interest even when it is not from museum curators and purists. 

"I have no use for purists. Every hobby I know of has been ruined by them. They can't simply enjoy coins or stamps or model trains, they have to look down their noses at other hobbyists whose collections aren't as fine as theirs. Purists might serve a useful purpose if they also achieved excellence in something meaningful, but they almost never do. Almost always, they pick some piece of trivia to obsess over and feel superior to everyone else about their ultra-fastidiousness." -- Steven Dutch

[ThomasPowers]

I rather dislike folks who "collect things" rather than use them myself. I feel that things that were made to be used deserve to be used.  I would prefer that people who don't know how to use them mess them up trying to learn on rare or pristine examples but that maight be the purist in me thinking that folks should learn something before going hog wild with hot iron.

[Frosty]

I think there are a couple core issues working in this thread. First is the old tools for reasonable question. Chalk that up to popularity =  demand = $. Look what popularity has done to so many excellent pursuits, pedigree dogs comes to mind. Used to be a top show quality German Shepard was a fine dog but over the past few years, after a well known judge gave best in show to a Shepard with a back sloping down to the rear quarters it's become a popular craze to breed for that characteristic and now we have show dogs that are born with hip dysplasia. German Shepards aren't the only breed that's been AKCed Labs that won't fetch, Chessies who can't swim, etc.

Popularity has run up the price of blacksmithing tools, the older and rustier the more valuable. How many folk ask here to ID their anvils and how old they are. Why, are older anvils better tools, is it experience? 

Anyway, that's my take on tool prices and as much as I love my Soderfors, I"d buy a Nimba rather than give what I paid for it back when. That's my take, popular = $.

Then there's the question and position I was commenting on when I got involved. New vs. salvaged steel for the beginner. I'm a proponent of learning a craft one thing at a time so I advise learn blacksmithing skills first. Then learn tool steels and heat treating. Once you've built proficiency in both, making knives doesn't offer much of a learning curve. A few specifics heat treating but they're just tweaking existing skills to a new tool, just a tweak. Grinding large bevels is probably the more demanding but it'll come quickly enough.

Learning to evaluate salvaged steel is a skills set in itself and outside of marketing has little effect on blades, IF you know what you're doing and get it right. If you have the other bladesmith's skills sets down proficiently then it's a matter of tweaking existing skills once you have the basic testing techniques down.

This is the reason I advise new guys to learn blacksmithing before advancing to higher level skills and get them down before adding the random property aspect of using salvaged, mystery steel.

That's it my take on the thread so far.

Frosty The Lucky.