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Scroll bender plans?


will52100

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That is a wonderful third world implement, suitable for making cold bent and arc welded products for the least discriminating clientele.

If that is what you want to do, go for it. But once you get a reputation for making bargain basement stuff, good luck trying to gain a high end clientele.

True, there are a lot more folks shopping in WalMart in the world than in Nordstroms, but the profit margins are low, and the service area is small.

High end makers have a waiting list, and ship nationwide. They have Patrons of their work, who tell others.

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Uh, you don't have to arc weld products for the least discriminating clientele.  Also?  Around these parts most people would rather buy tube steel factory crap for little money and watch it rot away.  And you can arc weld it together and clean it up.  Might not be 100% historically accurate, but until someone starts producing real wrought iron bar stock again then none of it is 100% historically accurate.  I'm not planning on shipping world wide, I'll be lucky if I sell much of it at all, and am just starting with architectural iron work.  Remember, for every Bill Moran or Ed Fowler there's 1000's of us that scrape by.

I like the bender as it looks like it makes it easier to do scrolls, but I assure you I would forge the ends as I normally do.  I just don't see a point in heating the entire bar to work it around my normal scrolling jigs as I'm doing now.  Less fuel used and less time.

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I haven't been able to find any decent plans on making a bender like that, but there are a few folks that have adapted the Hossfeld idea.  

The big issue I have with doing a scroll like that is that I haven't found a way to not have the straight end on the inside of the curl.  Straight ends are, in my view, the most horrible thing you can put on a scroll, but they're necessary on a bender like this because you need something to grab.

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  I'll probably do something like this next time, he shows doing several different end profiles.  The way I normally do it is I clamp the fish tail with a pair of vise grip.  No reason you couldn't clamp a fish tail in a bender instead of straight flat, which I agree looks cheap and unfinished.  My few scroll jigs I have currently are welded to sheet metal, I'll have to try something like this to see if I can do it accurately enough, I get nuts sometimes chasing the last few though trying to get a perfect ratio even though I know I'll never get it.

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I could also suggest that you go to the biggest and best blacksmith website on the internet (Oh, wait! You are already here!) and actually look around instead of having other folks do your research for you.

Go to Pages in the top tool bar, and look for Uri Hofi blueprints. You want BP1052. You are welcome.

Also there are lots of local groups that have made their old newsletters available to the public. FABA in Florida is among the best. This issue has lots of scrolling tips.

http://www.blacksmithing.org/CB-Archive/2000/2000-09-cb.pdf

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Thank you for the suggestion to look around instead of having others do it for me, the thought never crossed my mind.  I have been researching and coming up with nothing, otherwise I would not have asked.  I have spent the last 15 years primarily focused on edged tools, just starting on architectural work and have a lot to learn.  Part of asking for information is finding out where and what to look for.

That said, I thank you whole heartedly for the information on the Uri Hofi blueprints, I will check them out, along with the link to the FABA.

Thanks,

Will

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Google gave me 322,000 hits on "scroll bender plans" and a few thousand images. How are we to know which you want? What will suit you best, and not someone else? The link was to a low end third world workshop. Is that your goal to replicate? How about some of the cut&paste stuff from the King Architectural catalog? Have MIG, will fabricate on a cardboard sign?

The first step to solving a problem is defining very precisely what the problem is, and what the desired outcome would be. Two vague sentences do not a sophisticated inquiry make.  You have a hacked knifemaker website in your profile. The collective mind is still woefully short on mind reading abilities. You need to meet us partway.

 

Sorry if I come off as particularly gruff, I am old and cranky and tired of others wanting me to give them the test answers without them having to actually think and solve the problem for themselves. It has become an instant gratification world.

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I've said it dozens of times: If doing your research doesn't get you the answer you need, at least it will help you ask informed questions. John is absolutely right: without knowing precisely what you're looking for, WE have no idea how to answer your question. 

Pro tip #1: "something like this" is far too vague to elicit a specific response.

Pro tip #2: people on IFI get really annoyed by people who come right out and admit that they would rather benefit from someone else's hard work than put in the effort themselves. Show some respect and some initiative, and the keys to the kingdom will be yours.

Pro tip #3: Get better at searching. Ignore the Search window in the upper part of the website, and use Google or the like with "iforgeiron" as one of your search terms. Try different ways of asking the question: "scroll jig", "scroll bender", with and with out the word "plans", etc. If at the end of your searching you still haven't found what you want, think about WHY: what is it that's missing, inadequate, or just not right. If you can articulate what you're looking for and why what you've found so far isn't quite right, you'll get better help from the folks here.

Pro tip #4: Actually, this isn't so much a pro tip as it is respect for the forum and helping those who will come after you. Remember: IFI is a resource for EVERYONE. Every discussion here -- the ones we start ourselves and the ones we participate in -- become part of the encyclopedia for others' research. You asking good questions (initial and follow-up) and contributing to discussions to the best of your ability helps provide good information to other people trying to find answers to the same or similar questions. It's not just about us, right here and right now; it's about helping those who will come after us, so that they can start from a stronger base and carry the craft even further.

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Thanks for the head's up on the website, I've fixed the link.

First, I thought I was being fairly straight forward, looking for plans for a Hossfield type bender to handle larger scrolls.  Even posted a video of something similar to what I had in mind, even if not exactly what I was thinking.  Would have been happy with most of the suggestions I've received so far.  If all I was wanting was small scrolls out of thin stock I'd probably get a Harbor Freight bender with scrolling attachment.

Second, I was jumped on in the 4th post for "wanting to make third world junk", I assure you I have way too much OCD to even think about letting junk out of my shop, and take way too much pride in my work.  I too am not young anymore and can be prickly to comments like that from people I don't know, especially when I have tried to be respectful.  Nor is it easy to judge tone and intent from typed words.  Old and cranky is no excuse for lack of manners.

Third, I was trying to meet you half way or better, and obviously failed, for that I apologize.  I have been researching and do not wish others to do it for me, just to point me in the general direction or to give me a lead from there own experience.  If it sounded otherwise, that was not my intention.

Fourth, I guess there is such a thing as a dumb question.  However, I fully intended to share any plans or information I found, including anything I build with the information.

Due to the direction this thread is taking I would just as soon as let it die before going much further down this path as I'm not here for an argument or to upset the apple cart.

Thank you for time gentlemen.

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My my my, prickly aren't we?  Need a cookie?

You asked about a bender that wouldn't leave the flat inside end and showed an example. John pointed out that TOOL is suitable for 3rd. world . . . stuff. I've read his post several times now and nowhere did he say YOU make junk. Truth is he took time to respond to you and answered your question. Believe me he has better things to do than just throw smack at people. John's a PROFESSIONAL blacksmith and while I might not agree with him I read everything he grants us the time to write and I think about it. 

You asked a decent question and got good advice including good search terms. What will you do if you ask a question that's probably been asked and answered here a few hundred times already and someone just suggests better search terms and a comfy chair, beverage and snacks? For someone not wanting an argument that's a pretty long post telling us why you don't like the way we answer your question.

Scrolling by hand is an easy beginner's project and once you know how it's easy as pie to just begin the scroll before putting it into the bender. Viola! no funky flat end.

If you're always this sensitive about your expectations you might not do so well blacksmithing. The steel doesn't care how you feel, nore does the fire, tools or equipment if you don't get it right it will be wrong and there isn't anywhere else to put the reason.

I guess I need a cookie. Frosty The Lucky.

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I am only a lowly hobbiest blacksmith, but a professional Welding Inspector and Instructor. Which means that I get to teach Fabrication 1 & 2, among other things. I am proud to say that many of my students have far surpassed me, and are independent artists, or work at Space-X, and other rarefied atmosphere jobs.

Yes, there is a market for the low end, and it is a trap. They say that it is lonely at the top. Well, it is crowded at the bottom.

I have been fortunate to rub elbows with some pretty high end knifemakers and ornamental ironworkers over the years. The financially successful ones never, ever compromised on quality of their output. If they were not proud of it, and thought that it was the very best work that they were capable of at that moment, then it was utterly destroyed. Not just given away, or thrown in a scrap bin, but reduced to rubble. Far better to lose money on a deal now than to be haunted by a clunker for years.

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I agree with you that low end is a trap.  What I'm trying to say, and apparently badly, is that I am developing my skills and I am not going to be able to produce world class iron work at this time, though I will not offer junk either.  I will do as I normally do and strive to constantly improve and make each new piece better than the last.  I have no desire to compromise on quality either, but then I can not spend a month building something and then give it away for nothing and take a loss.  I can and do price my work far below the time I have in it just to be able to sell some of it and pay for materials and consumables.  Also you have to know your market, I sell 10 times as many basic hunters as I do mosaic damascus bowies.  I do not skimp on quality or performance on the hunters, but I don't put mammoth ivory and mosaic damascus on them with silver sheaths either.  I also try to improve upon the last one I did.  I enjoy doing high end work, but the basic working knives are what pays the bills.  I whole heartedly agree with you on not letting questionable work out either, every so often I test a blade to complete destruction, and often it's one that I though I could do better or have messed up some how and as you say, I do not wish to be haunted by a clunker years from now.

What I was looking at the floor mounted type bender was easy repeatability and set up, not compromising on quality.  I'm starting to think I'd be better off just building a complete scroll jig for each one I do as needed.  From what I've seen there are a few traditional scrolling jigs that people bend the scroll cold.  What bugs me about that, and I had hoped to eliminate, is the spring back causing the ratio to be off.  I know it's not going to be perfect, but I can see minor deviations and they drive me nuts.  Last time I built a scrolling jig I wound up drawing it out on poster paper and since it was for 3/8" bar stock I drew where the rod would go to try and eliminate any deviation in the scroll and built the jig from that drawing.  As an example a friend of mine built a scrolling jig for a hand rail he was building and I could easily see something was off.  The scroll matched his jig, and he'd supposedly laid it out correctly, but upon closer inspection we found a few area's that were off by about an 1/8" in a 10" scroll.  That kind of thing drives my OCD nuts.

 

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Build your jig to make a scroll, then adjust your drawing to incorporate the spring back of the metal in that jig.

Or trial and error build a jig to match the spring back of the metal.

All this works ONLY if you can get metal with consistent properties. Deviations in the metal can throw the scroll off.

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You are using an anvil and a 2 pound hammer, not a lathe and micrometer. If one scroll is an exact duplicate of all the rest, then it becomes uninteresting. Many need the slight differences to appreciate the beauty of the project.

Jigs do not make it better, jigs make it faster.

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You are correct, and I know I'll never get it within thousandths, but I don't want them to be obviously off either.  But what you bring up about inconsistencies in A36 is something I should have considered, so if I'm understanding everybody correctly, heating and forming is more accurate than cold bending?  So far I've been heating and bending, using the hammer and light blows to snug the scrolls up to the jig.  They are not perfect, but not bad either.  If that is the case then it's a fool's errand to chaise a way to cold bend them if I'm going to have to fight inconsistencies in the steel itself.  What I'm trying to say, is that any time saved by bending cold is spent tweaking the finished product to fit properly and look good?

Also, good point about the hammer and anvil, not a lathe and micrometer.  Sometimes I get hung up on precision too much, which is one of the reasons I'm enjoying heating and beating on stuff.  As long as I can stop myself from taking it to the grinder and putting a mirror finish or 2k hand rubbed finish.

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You're not a pro John? DRATS, wrong again! :o Well. . . I'm going to listen to your advice and opinions anyway.

Sorry if I came across harsh, I get carried away and hit send when I shouldn't. Most of us are at least a bit OCD AND I'm ADHD too, so in my world everything has to be perfect, just not for long.

There's the trap on the other end of the spectrum from the easy sloppy; the unending trap of the quest for perfection, it doesn't exist, not for a human. It's hard to learn what good enough is. It's a skill set of it's own. We tend to be our own worst critics we'll spot the most minuscule . . . thing we think is a fault and our eye will be drawn to it over everything else.

I can see the slightest wobble in  a cable twist of mine across the room like a slap in the face, I've never gotten a good pineapple twist. We all do it, we're our own harshest judge. It's a fact of life Brother might as well get used to it.

A snub end scroll, half penny or otherwise is EASY to "clamp" in a scrolling jig and not have a straight spot at the end. My favorite scrolling die is a thick scroll that's been stretched out of plane with the center high. The die is welded to a plate with a center pin for the turning arm. The start of the scroll is stop pinned against the die not captured in a slot.

You start the scroll by initiating the bend in the end, this captures it against the die under the stop pin the stock can NOT slip off the scrolling die so it turns against it. No matter what I've done there will be a little kink in the scroll profile where it initiates so I use my, "can't get it "Right" or hide it" trick.

I accentuate the blemish and make it a feature, show it off like it's intentional. If a rare individual notices a blem and asks I'll tell them how many years it took to learn to make that feature "Just so."  B)

I don't think it's a coincidence Bull Shooting and Black Smithing are both abbreviated BS.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Not a problem, I tend to OCD and hard headed, but never claimed to be very smart either.

I haven't tried ha penny ends yet, but I'm getting what your saying about clamping the ends.  I haven't had an issue with that yet, so far just doing fish tails, starting the bend on the anvil and clamping in the jig with vise grips.  The issue is the amount of fuel I use to make the bends, either gas for the torch or coal for the forge, most times both.  Then I see people apparently making nice scrolls cold and figure I should be able to do the same.  Unfortunately I'm thinking it's not as simple as they show to get good scrolls cold bent.

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Ahh, nobody who pays attention to details and is willing to adapt can be called anything but smart.

Scrolling cold requires tighter radii on the scrolling die, better clamp, longer handle and you gotta move fast. Scroll fast to keep ahead of the building stress and work hardening. In shop class we had yellow stripes painted on the floor around equipment to mark exclusion zones, nobody not using the equipment was allowed inside the yellow line, helpers were okay but nobody else on pain of book work. The bender had a big yellow circle around it for those times we kids needed to get out the cheater bar and run. Great memories from shop class.

There's a trick we learned from Mr. Harding in Occupational Heavy Metal, high school shop class about cold scrolling. We used a Hossfeld bender and a commercial scrolling die but the scrolls would spring open every time. The bender was a COLD ONLY tool in shop class. The trick? A pneumatic air hammer with a large flat die and stress relieve the scroll with the handle pinned. Turn the scroll, pin the handle and a couple few turns around the scroll with a wide plannishing bit in the air hammer and the scroll stayed put.

You can do the same thing with a hammer but it takes a touch to NOT hammer mark the scroll. If you are doing scrolls with a textured finish the ball pein relieves the stress better than hot bending even, any hammering will relieve the stress. Just don't get carried away, a LITTLE hardness to the scrolls can be a structural feature making gates, railings, etc. more stable and stronger.

So, you think you're OCD huh. ^_^

Frosty The Lucky.

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We may need to get a cold drink and sit so we can think on this for a bit.

Making one of anything takes more time than you can imagine, as each step has to be thought out, tried, changed to actually work, and then be produced. Remember the S hooks? Make 25 and then pick the 2 that are EXACTLY alike. The other 23 S hooks are then sold as individual hooks.

 

How many scrolls do you need, 10, 100, 1000, 10,000 ? How close to duplicates do they actually need to be?

For a limited number of scrolls, we can use a hammer and anvil, one at a time. To make things quick and easy we make a jig. This may take several jigs to get it close right. Or we could make a jig, take the resulting scroll, and change the drawings or plans to match THAT scroll.

Either way we need to over produce the number of scrolls needed and, upon inspection, discard the out of spec scrolls,. This will leave us with a quantity of very closely matched scrolls. If you were to number the scrolls, I will bet you a pound of clinker that the first ones produced will be the ones that are out of spec. As the production of scrolls continues, YOU will calm down, relax, and start making duplicate or nearly duplicate scrolls, either by hammer or by jig.

 

 

 

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