JHCC Posted January 6, 2017 Author Share Posted January 6, 2017 On 11/6/2016 at 9:16 PM, Mikey98118 said: Wayne likes insulating refractories over high alumina kiln shelves; If you cast it into a curved floor, it then is more desirable than kiln shelf in some forge designs, but with its positives comes a negative; it simply isn't as tough as the kin shelf. BUT, Supposing that you take advantage of its insulating superiority to place Perlite directly below below it, and use sodium silicate or more refractory to bond the Perlite into a monolithic? Now ya got something! Okay, so are you saying that I could replace the kaowool in the bottom half of the forge with a monolithic made from one of the following: (A) a mixture of perlite and sodium silicate, (B) a mixture of perlite, sodium silicate, and ceramic fiber, or (C) a mixture of perlite and refractory? I think you're saying that would work with a floor made from refractory, but that I'd need an intervening layer of kaowool if I wanted to use high-alumina kiln shelf for a working floor -- is that right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Do not replace the refractory blanket; but what you choose to do for a floor above that blanket is what is under discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 6, 2017 Author Share Posted January 6, 2017 17 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said: Do not replace the refractory blanket; but what you choose to do for a floor above that blanket is what is under discussion. Okay, so I need the insulation of the kaowool all the way around the forge. Gotcha. I guess my question is, if I fill in that extra space with the perlite (or a combination of perlite, sodium silicate, and/or refractory), does that need to be inside the kaowool layer (Option 1 below) or can it fill in the space below that layer --that is, between the kaowool and the steel of the tank (Option 2)? Where F = Floor, K = Kaowool, and P = Perlite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Perlite and refractory is best; under the Kaowool is best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 minute ago, Mikey98118 said: Perlite and refractory is best; under the Kaowool is best. Good to know; thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JA625 Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 I must say this thread has been super informative. I've been kicking around the idea of doing a similar design with a 20# propane tank but feel like the 583 ci of Fire box Wayne quotes on his site is quite demanding for needed output of burner/burners. Besides being slightly bigger/longer than I would need, I do not have a 100# lp tank to feed the beast nor a truck to haul said 100# tank for refills. FYI this would be my first forge and have reasons for wanting gas. So I suppose my main question is, is a 20 pounder just too big for a general purpose forge or consume too much fuel for someone like me? I like the idea of a smaller helium tank, but also not sure if I can get one for cheap. Follow up: pearlite filler is a great idea! is that mixed homegenously with refractory or is refractory layered over the top? I.e. Not pre mixed I do realize it does depend on the type of burner I have in mind. I originally thought gun/blown type but pricing fans was a HUGE turn off. Then it was on to NA and the T, but recently just loved frostys work on a NARB. (2" x 6" I think?) Im just trying to figure out exactly what I'm gonna do before collecting materials. Nice work planning so far JHCC, don't give up I'll take the plunge with ya! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 7 minutes ago, JA625 said: So I suppose my main question is, is a 20 pounder just too big for a general purpose forge or consume too much fuel for someone like me? I like the idea of a smaller helium tank, but also not sure if I can get one for cheap. Freon/R134 tanks are the same size, and are usually obtainable for free from HVAC folks and possibly even auto shops - pretty much any place that does a lot of air conditioner work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Check out the attachment Build a Gas Forge on the Forge Supplies page at www.WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith.com for how I like to build a good, tough, long lasting, efficient forge. Let me know if I can help you. Wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JA625 Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Thanks Buzz, free is great! Still have trouble wrapping my head around places giving away stuff like that. Also thanks Wayne and I've been on the site and will be in touch when it comes time for refractory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 My local party shop tosses the pink He tanks sold for party balloons on a regular basis, Larger than a coffee can smaller than a propane tank, but looks a bit like a propane tank if you want to follow the plans for a tank forge...just reduce as necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JA625 Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Excellent mr powers thank you! There's a party shop 10 mins away I'll be checking out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share Posted February 2, 2017 I snagged mine after an office party last year. My boss was leaving, and we filled her office with black balloons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Jory: I agree, 580 cu/in is a darned large forge but the length isn't bad. How about putting another layer of Kaowool in the liner? That'll reduce the volume considerably. However you make the platform to form the floor you want the most insulation closest to the fire so if you're using perlite put it between the kaowool and the shell. Helium & freon tanks are easy scores, ask at a party or rental store or ask the folk at the transfer station to set one aside for you. Around here we have transfer stations rather than dumps, there is one landfill, it's open to the public but it's more expensive per load but it can be sort of an off road adventure getting to the trash face(?) Anyway the smaller more local transfer stations have a shed to put things like cans of oil, batteries, old pressure tanks: propane, freon, etc. The folk at the transfer station are friendly and if there's no line more than willing to talk. It doesn't take much of a bribe to get them to set things aside for you, not even a box of donuts does the trick for a long time. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JA625 Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Thanks jer, I did consider doing that with the lp tank. Still am, I hate decisions when there's no obvious winner. You reminded me that my area has a "bulk trash" day once a month that stuff has to go to similar relay point not just straight landfill. I think I should have no problems coming up with a shell. if the pearlite is just a filler per se does it need mixed with anything or does the layer/layers of blanket and castable above it make that moot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Non-refillable two gallon Freon cylinders are easily obtainable from HVAC contractors and repair shops, because they have to pay to get rid of them. I didn't know that there was even such a thing as party stores, but the two gallon helium cylinders are also non-refillable, and so they present the same disposal problem for them, and should be just as easy a source for free cylinders. It seems that its been quite a while since anyone talked about properly venting "empty" cylinders before doing hot-work on them... Perlite is usually "glued" together with sodium silicate as an outer insulating layer, or are used as an insulating ingreadiant in castable refractory, much the same way a sawdust used to be, before guys wised up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 I'd probably use something to stabilize the perlite but if the ends are secured and the flame face, inner liner, is plastered with a hard refractory it probably isn't necessary. My made the floor in my last cylindrical forge by putting a strip of Kaowool in the bottom, pealed the edges so it fit smoothly and plastered it all in, the ends too. Mike just brought up venting pressure tanks before cutting and it's been quite a while since it was a topic here. Just open the valve and make sure there is NO pressure in non-flammable gas cylinders Helium, Freon, etc. Propane can be a concern though, it really should be better than just empty. I cobbled an adapter together so I can blow compressed air into an empty cylinder and it flushes out in a couple applications. An empty propane cylinder is going to stink, Mercaptain is the oderant added to propane so you can smell a leak and it leaves a tarry layer in the tank. It's easy to remove though for a 20lb. cylinder add about 2 cups of chlorine bleach and fill it with water. Let it set overnight and rinse it out, no more smell. Oh, about using compressed air to flush the tank, NO you don't put much pressure in the tank! Heck, the first time I did it I just wrapped a rag around the air chuck, opened the tank valve and blew some air in, removed the air chuck to let it exhale and repeated a few times. It still stinks at this point don't sweat it. Cutting propane tanks is NOTHING like cutting fuel oil tanks and barrels the process and hazard are worlds different. Do NOT take a torch or welder to a fuel oil tank or barrel! EVER! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Also, unlike non-refillable two gallon Freon and helium cylinders, propane cylinders all have a little fitting on the side of the main valve that can be unscrewed, leaving the valve open to outside air. I never do anything else on an "empty" fuel cylinder without taking off that screw completely; its kind of the same difference as thinking the gun is empty and doing the gun is empty That should " read knowing the gun is empty.: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JA625 Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Great info gentlemen thank you! I know drilling a hole for water displacement still makes me nervous on a manually discharged tank. Good to know about air "rinsing" and the small fitting on the valve. I'll pick up a smaller tank and do a side by side comparison and some math and make my decision. I figure a frosty t might be in order as a cast multi port might be too ambitious for a first timer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 No worry with an He tank! Its pretty much the definition of inert... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 That would be a noble choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 what a gas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 Just now, ThomasPowers said: what a gas! He, He, He! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 27 minutes ago, JHCC said: He, He, He! He3? what a proFusion of conFusion, next thing you know we'll be candidates for Lithium therapy! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, Frosty said: He3? what a proFusion of conFusion, next thing you know we'll be candidates for Lithium therapy! Frosty The Lucky. We aren't already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 22, 2017 Author Share Posted March 22, 2017 UPDATE: Given a bunch of factors (happiness with new JABOD, limited availability of funds, etc), I 've decided not to proceed with a gasser for the time being and have instead turned the He tank into a slack tub. I'll definitely be keeping this in mind for the future, though, so thanks to everyone who provided their advice and expertise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.