BOB T Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 When to a farm sale Saturday pick up 8 old wrought iron buggy wheels . Biggest 54" in dia. 1/2" X1 3/4" . I got them cheap .I can see that they are all forged welded together . Question ; I read that usually wheels/rims are not the "top of the line" for wrought iron ?? I was wondering if anyone else had some experience working with WI buggy rims and what kind of results they've gotten ? Right now going to use the WI to make tomahawks with 1075 bits .I have made a couple so far with WI that turned out ok but not from buggy rims ..Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Wrought iron and quality can not be lumped into one heading.. Wrought iron in the hay day varied from batch to batch and some were cold short and some were hot short.. Cold short didn't like to be worked cold and hot short didn't like to be worked to hot.. I've worked with both types and have found that it is inconsistent with the quality that either has.. One rim maybe hot short the other cold short.. Where quality of wrought iron comes in is actually both of the hot/cold variety but also how many times it was heated and forged to get to the desired thickness.. The more it was heated and forged to size the tighter the grain structure and the better the material as most the impurities have been worked out of it. "This translates into higher quality" The highest quality anvils were made from scrap because it offered a better forged wrought iron than freshly made wrought iron .. If the tires have wear on them you will be able to see the grain structure and the level of unevenness in the face of it.. To test the wrought iron for both hot and cold and quality work, do a bend test.. it's it really low quality it won't like to bend without fracturing.. and work it at a white heat and again at a red heat.. do it at the end of the bar forging it down to say a square and as you work it it will start to unravel either at the hot or cold heat.. Kind of neat.. One other thing.. Wrought iron.. Real wrought iron is a pure delight and joy to work with.. Everything just forges that much better.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Terminology. Not trying to be too nitpicky, but you have iron tires. The rim is wooden and composed of fellies, iron tire on the outside and spokes inserted on the inside. The wheel is the whole shootin' match assembled, including the hub. And yes, the wrought iron in tires are often single refined and stringy to work. I'm open to being corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOB T Posted October 24, 2016 Author Share Posted October 24, 2016 Thanks on the feed back!!!! Have a pretty good supply to work with now so I can forge a way and learn,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 I'm not following the "real delight and joy to work with" comment. If you have to bend it, then test forge it both hot and cold to ID it, what advantage is that over buying say, 1018? I mean you know what 1018 is. There is no test procedure involved. Just heat it and work it. I have tried a little wrought given to me. It comes apart as I forge it. I understand now I'd have to "test it" as some must be worked hot and some worked a bit cooler? I don't ever remember having to test 1018 thus that would seem to be a pure joy in working it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 1 hour ago, SReynolds said: I'm not following the "real delight and joy to work with" comment. If you have to bend it, then test forge it both hot and cold to ID it, what advantage is that over buying say, 1018? I mean you know what 1018 is. There is no test procedure involved. Just heat it and work it. I have tried a little wrought given to me. It comes apart as I forge it. I understand now I'd have to "test it" as some must be worked hot and some worked a bit cooler? I don't ever remember having to test 1018 thus that would seem to be a pure joy in working it. I don't want to come off sounding tright or snippy.. but it's and educational learning lesson.. Today Pretty Much EVERYTHING Is a known entenduty. (1018 has specs within a certain range no matter where it's made) Back in the olden days you would get rough formed bars from the iron monger and then the smith would forge them to the required size. That was the real reason for swage blocks and the reason the holes are tapered.. Real wrought iron has characteristics all its own and it cannot be forged incorrectly where 1018 or 1020 it can be made a mockery of forging wise and not spit back at the smith.. Wrought iron was phased out for many reasons but the main reason is it can't be forged or shaped like modern steels. Towards the phasing out time the wrought iron produced was of the highest quality straight from the furnace and was on par with mild steels of the day, but then the amount of labor was excessive and to costly so by,by.. Anyhow, smithing today has been dumbed down in a few ways and made easier to partake in.. For starters you don't have to analyze through working or hardening any of the steels since you know what they are. This experimenting of each bar gives you a intimate knowledge of the properties of that bar , which forging methods are needed, which heat treatment for each bar etc etc.. Which you would have to figure out on your own.. While from today's standards it would seem like a waste of time all that testing makes you a better smith because you learn by what works and what doesn't via feedback of the material vs just being told.. Basically it's one of the abilities that gave blacksmiths as much lore as they had gotten and also why some smith's were famous for problem solving verses others.. Without real wrought iron the really fancy very intricate works would have never been made or have lasted as long.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Sorry I never answered your question. . It forges like butter 2-4× faster than 1018. It's extremely easy to forge weld (when not hot short), it's highly rust resistant. BUT , it won't put up with being forged badly.. proper forging techniques are a must. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 JLP, now we have rebar and A36, lol. We are back to testing the mystery metal, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 2 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said: JLP, now we have rebar and A36, lol. We are back to testing the mystery metal, lol Though not entirely on the subject......this has everything to do w/testing your bar stock; The Blacksmith Community Forum on Facebook says no. That Rebar is clearly marked exactly what it is in terms of alloy agent(s) and carbon point. There is no guessing. This is the first I have heard about rebar stampings as all folks I know say you don't know.......so....I'm at a loss. I have no rebar. I have used it and found it welds poorly, but that was my very limited experience. The community forum says rebar makes good tooling, if you acquire the quality stuff. Apparently there is high carbon rebar and because it is so very inexpensive, this is what folks desire, so look out. There may be a truck in your neighborhood collecting high carbon rebar. Probably late at night..........(?) Thanks for the explanation of wrought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 1 hour ago, SReynolds said: Though not entirely on the subject......this has everything to do w/testing your bar stock; The Blacksmith Community Forum on Facebook says no. That Rebar is clearly marked exactly what it is in terms of alloy agent(s) and carbon point. There is no guessing. This is the first I have heard about rebar stampings as all folks I know say you don't know.......so....I'm at a loss. I have no rebar. I have used it and found it welds poorly, but that was my very limited experience. The community forum says rebar makes good tooling, if you acquire the quality stuff. Apparently there is high carbon rebar and because it is so very inexpensive, this is what folks desire, so look out. There may be a truck in your neighborhood collecting high carbon rebar. Probably late at night..........(?) Thanks for the explanation of wrought. I hate to highjack threads.. I try to stay on point but there is just so much information.. the post I made earlier on Wrought iron and why it's a great material was posted from my car in-between jobs.. Rebar comes in all sorts of classifications.. There is high, medium and low carbon rebar.. One also has to remember what rebar does.. in layman speak "concrete cannot sustain elongation loads or tension.. only compression".. Rebar makes it so tension and elongation can be handled by the concrete If you find a good sample and can get some then go for it, I've made decent quality swords from it with differential heat treat.. Show nice hardening line with polishing.. Certain rebars can be tough to weld.. Anyhow, the rebar depends a lot on where it came from as well as when it was produced. there is some real garbage out there. but also some really nice stuff.. I found some rebar from way back that was carbonized wrought iron.. It was priceless for any knives or wood working tools.. Same can be said about rail road spikes.. depending on where they came from (high speed rails, heavy hauling rails) will dictate which kind of spikes they use.. Basically if the material is unknown to the user and does not have a spec sheet (even with spec sheet one should verify their heat treat methods to achieve the best results) with it then it should be tested as any good smith worth his or her salt should do automatically before they make something out of it.. Did I say I was old school.. Your welcome.. 3 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said: JLP, now we have rebar and A36, lol. We are back to testing the mystery metal, lol I love mystery metal.. just made a new hoof knife out of a lawn mower blade.. Wouldn't harden in oil.. LOL>> Water hardened only.. only took 3 times to figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Stamping may hold true for certain rebar for very limited applications (nucular containment buildings?) but most I see isn't. Not to say that most dosnt have enugh carbon content to make servo able hot tools. Then Again I have a rail spike I have used for years as a hot tool, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Bloom => Muck Bar => Singly Refined Wrought Iron => Doubly Refined Wrought Iron => Triply Refined Wrought iron => ... Now what you are trying to use it for determines quality for that task. I had a friend that needed some WI so I cut and mailed him a bunch of high grade wrought iron, lovely stuff forged like butter, welded like it's last name was smith-miller. He hated it as he wanted to use it for blade fittings and then etch it to get the rough pattern of low grade wrought iron. I replaced it with wagon tyre. Real wrought can often be forged at yellow to white heat and so be dead soft compared to modern steels that are burning at the working point of WI. So muckbar will make a blade that a good celtic smith would be ashamed of; or an artistic sculptural piece etched to show the "grain" that would stand proud in most museums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 10 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: Bloom => Muck Bar => Singly Refined Wrought Iron => Doubly Refined Wrought Iron => Triply Refined Wrought iron => ... Now what you are trying to use it for determines quality for that task. I had a friend that needed some WI so I cut and mailed him a bunch of high grade wrought iron, lovely stuff forged like butter, welded like it's last name was smith-miller. He hated it as he wanted to use it for blade fittings and then etch it to get the rough pattern of low grade wrought iron. I replaced it with wagon tyre. Real wrought can often be forged at yellow to white heat and so be dead soft compared to modern steels that are burning at the working point of WI. So muckbar will make a blade that a good celtic smith would be ashamed of; or an artistic sculptural piece etched to show the "grain" that would stand proud in most museums. Mr Powers, Question for you. One project I've had on back burners for a long time now is to build my own Pennsylvania Long Rifle. Yes I know there are various kits for doing that but they're essentially just a matter of assembly. I'm wanting to forge out the barrel and really do it right start to finish. To do so will require wrought iron. I located a place that has some old stuff from a bridge getting torn down that is exactly in the 3" width I was wanting. I know the information is kinda limited being as I haven't even seen the stuff yet but in your opinion would such structural type wrought iron be a good choice for a project like that? George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Have to check it to see what it was; can you get a sample? Will you be doing a spiral weld or a trough weld? Will it be used????? Are you familiar with the term " Indemnify " Bridges may use differing qualities for differing parts---tension members generally better than compression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Yeah I intend to use it. Trough weld. Is like I said I've not seen the stuff yet but I'll soon get some. Figure if not good for a rifle barrel it should definitely be good for something else. What little experience I have messing with iron I've loved the stuff. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 You people make me so jealous. I have yet to find any real wrought iron. Every time I think I did it turns out to be some kind of modern steel. I have a small piece someone gave me but don't want to use it for anything and end up loving it so much I 'have' to find more. I'm still holding out hope I'll find some one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 plenty here Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 9 minutes ago, Michael Cochran said: You people make me so jealous. I have yet to find any real wrought iron. Every time I think I did it turns out to be some kind of modern steel. I have a small piece someone gave me but don't want to use it for anything and end up loving it so much I 'have' to find more. I'm still holding out hope I'll find some one day. go over to where there are any old mills and just look around.. or old farm silo's.. Before the chinese bought up all the scrap a few years ago you could find it just about everywhere.. Now it's slim pickens but still find a piece here or there if you look.. go over to abandoned farms.. In the olden days people would just stack the scrap up.. Today on my way home from feet duty.. I stopped by an old mill site which burnt and grabbed a few ends just laying in the dirt.. There were some 1"round rods about 12ft long but they were stuck in pipe filled with clay in a brick foundation and the nuts were still on the ends.. Can't make off with those on the down low.. I did just find 4) 3/4" rounds 20ft long that were used on the rail road for stabilizing crane rigging.. These had the stamped in numbers of the smith who made them.. Pretty awesome.. The forge welds were perfect.. I'll post pictures up tomorrow.. Also found some vintage rebar.. They were all just stacked up like someone forgot about them.. I had to dig them out from under trees and roots and about 6-12" of new soil/hummus.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 People here are very funny about trespassers and have a tendency to shoot first. So much of the old farm land (land that was in family for generations) has been split up and sold and houses and neighborhoods built in the old fields and pastures. I do have a couple laces to look whenever I can find the owner and ask permission first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 In this part of the country those old wagon wheel tires were often used to make hinges. The real long strap hinges that can be seen on the old barns are still pretty plentiful. The stuff is where you find it like everything else. Is just a matter of keeping your eyes open and paying attention to detail of your surroundings. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 Shoot I once found one in the middle of a city in a dumpster behind a florist's shop. They junked their old "display" and driving right past the dumpster I saw it and got permission to recycle it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 BobT, This thread probably turned into a whole different beast than expected?.. Here are some pictures of the wrought iron I stumbled across while out walking.. As mentioned before I believe they were used for rigging for cranes that worked on the Railroad as well as a watershed project by the state.. One other thing about wrought iron.. Overall it's not as strong as mild steel.. Tensions it's only ok. compression is pretty good. But any notch test and it will usually fail.. I had to cut a 3/4" bar to be able to straighten a section and with only an 1/8" notch I could easily break it in 2.. I was going to show some little videos on the difference between forging hot short and cold short as I had a piece that hated being worked hot so much so I think the guys who made it were happy to see it leave the shop.. It was originally used for a loading dock bumper.. Anyhow, after I was done with the majority of trailer making I had a scrapper helping me clean things up and the section (about 2ft long) must have gone with him.. Oh, well.. anyhow heres some pictures of the iron i found and the notch I cut in with the open break.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOB T Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 10 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said: BobT, This thread probably turned into a whole different beast than expected?.. Here are some pictures of the wrought iron I stumbled across while out walking.. As mentioned before I believe they were used for rigging for cranes that worked on the Railroad as well as a watershed project by the state.. One other thing about wrought iron.. Overall it's not as strong as mild steel.. Tensions it's only ok. compression is pretty good. But any notch test and it will usually fail.. I had to cut a 3/4" bar to be able to straighten a section and with only an 1/8" notch I could easily break it in 2.. I was going to show some little videos on the difference between forging hot short and cold short as I had a piece that hated being worked hot so much so I think the guys who made it were happy to see it leave the shop.. It was originally used for a loading dock bumper.. Anyhow, after I was done with the majority of trailer making I had a scrapper helping me clean things up and the section (about 2ft long) must have gone with him.. Oh, well.. anyhow heres some pictures of the iron i found and the notch I cut in with the open break.. On 10/25/2016 at 5:02 PM, the iron dwarf said: plenty here Michael JIP... Good to let people know about WI ..Otherwise most ends up in the scrapyards as plain steel There is a old bridge just setting out in a cow pasture ..it is WI , Has some nice bars that 1 1/2 " Sq 15' in length..I stop by every couple of years to see if the farmer wants to sell it ? The funny part is it not over a creek or ditch..just out in the grass. Maybe some day he will sell it ?? Would hate to see the WI go to the scrapyard . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 50 minutes ago, BOB T said: JIP... Good to let people know about WI ..Otherwise most ends up in the scrapyards as plain steel There is a old bridge just setting out in a cow pasture ..it is WI , Has some nice bars that 1 1/2 " Sq 15' in length..I stop by every couple of years to see if the farmer wants to sell it ? The funny part is it not over a creek or ditch..just out in the grass. Maybe some day he will sell it ?? Would hate to see the WI go to the scrapyard . Yes it is.. Lots of good information here on WI.. I regretfully gave away about a ton of it back when I quite smithing.. Was great quality.. Gave it to a blacksmith friend of mine who ended up with my 200lbs Myers.. If you have a chance to get the bridge.. It would be such a sweet deal.. Most that stuff goes to Scrap here without ever having a chance to grab any as the state projects frown on any civilian approaching a work site.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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