jlpservicesinc Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 this started life as a 1/2" round.. The finial shaft size is about 3/8".. It is a rake or Side poker for forge coal fire maintenance.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnie Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 The twists are well done and really give the piece a nice touch. The whole piece is very well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 3 minutes ago, Donnie said: The twists are well done and really give the piece a nice touch. The whole piece is very well done. Thanks. . It's very comfortable in the hand.. the ring sits right in the palm and gives good control of the shaft in use.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stan Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 I like the way the handle was twisted and forge welded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergely Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 The twisted loop is the best! Well done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackdawg Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 demonstrated some good technique in making that! I like it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoggy Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 That's a very nice piece jlp' I made one myself not a week ago, no where near as nice as this one plain but functional. I made mine with a plain 90deg bend.....is the turnback so often seen in coal rakes merely astetic or does it serve some purpose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Smoggy said: That's a very nice piece jlp' I made one myself not a week ago, no where near as nice as this one plain but functional. I made mine with a plain 90deg bend.....is the turnback so often seen in coal rakes merely astetic or does it serve some purpose? Thanks guys.. Was fun to make and a great way to use up the rod which was discarded.. Smoggy, the reason for the offset hook is so you have better control over the hook end.. with it offset to one side like you mentioned the pressure applied to the tip is pushed either left or right around the center mass and since the hook is on the down side. With the hook mounted to the back of the shaft. (back being the side you are looking at in normal use or tip down) the pressure is moved to the back and it re centers the hook which now moves the pressure more center line to the shaft vs being offset only on one side. This little thing can make the tool more user friendly and take some pressure off the wrist in use from lateral (twisting/torque) forces.. I like all my forge tool handles to feel like I can pry up an anvil with them.. I found in my early days that a handle that doesn't offer positive control are harder to use and I found my forearms and wrists were more tired at the end of the day.. So no round handles unless they have some way to prevent a twisting force. Like the hoop end.. The drawing explains it a little better.. The 1.25" measurement is just to show how the lever applies the forces a little differently. the number is kind of arbitrary since it comes down to what someone likes.. Each leg from the shaft in the drawing is the same length and the reason I measured them and they are as drawn 1.25" long.. Also some would argue it doesn't matter in a forge tool since it sees so little use..Need more pressure for turning just put on a bigger handle.. I just do what I have found works better for me and besides that it looks neat.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggraham Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 I have tried both, now I know why I like the offset better besides being able to move more material and get into corners better with the forged point on the end, point is a single sided taper. Sorry, no pictures handy. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Goodness JP you have a way of starting good discussions don't you? Off setting the rake bend like that does indeed improve the user's leverage but is a real improvement I haven't seen mentioned yet. The back bend makes a nearly perfect coal hammer for breaking up coal to your preferred size. I like it all round it's made to work well, it looks good and you made it yourself, what could be better? Darned if I hadn't looked at the pics of the loop 2-3 times before my curiosity led me to look close enough to realize that wasn't some mysterious feature of the joint but your trademark. I may be slow sometimes but I get there eventually. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 5 hours ago, ggraham said: I have tried both, now I know why I like the offset better besides being able to move more material and get into corners better with the forged point on the end, point is a single sided taper. Sorry, no pictures handy. George Post one up when you have a chance.. Love to see it.. I leave a rounded end on the work side.. I used to do an offset bevel, but found I didn't use it enough to have it.. I use a shovel, rake and straight poker/welding feeler as my forge tools.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoggy Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Thanks for the reply jlp. makes perfect sense once pointed out, and for your input too Frosty, that would have probably been obvious to me had I ever seen this type being used. And now armed with that information I'll likely look to apply the same principles elsewhere. Cheers again guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 JLP, I'm confused. It sounds like you're saying the crook design reduces the torque at the handle end. I'm imagining the tip pointing straight down in coal, and the user rotating the handle to move the tip left or right in the coal. I would expect that the torque would be a function of the radius from the center of the axis to the tip of the moment arm. Since both examples you gave have the same dimension (1.25") I don't see how they could have any difference in leverage. It seems like the additional weight of the doubled over crook portion would act as a counter weight that would create torque in the opposite direction of the users rotation. I could definitely see that feeling easier to the user. Frosty's point is a particularly good observation that makes a lot of sense to me. That lead me to notice that the crooked tool pulls less material than it pushes as a rake. That makes it possible to quickly push coked material towards the center of the fire, while still being able to deftly move material around the stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Frosty said: Goodness JP you have a way of starting good discussions don't you? Off setting the rake bend like that does indeed improve the user's leverage but is a real improvement I haven't seen mentioned yet. The back bend makes a nearly perfect coal hammer for breaking up coal to your preferred size. I like it all round it's made to work well, it looks good and you made it yourself, what could be better? Darned if I hadn't looked at the pics of the loop 2-3 times before my curiosity led me to look close enough to realize that wasn't some mysterious feature of the joint but your trademark. I may be slow sometimes but I get there eventually. Frosty The Lucky. Frosty, I'm just getting ramped up.. I've been sleeping for 10 years so the skill set if rusty.. LOL no pun intended.. Ok.. maybe a little bit.. Thank you.. I actually have 3 touch marks small anvil, large anvil and 2/2 or 2 dots over 2 dots as a representation of zero.. In the olden days it was considered a travesty to make a beautiful peice than deface with a makers mark.. So the 2/2 can be seen as a decoration of sorts, yet is my mark just the same.. You can see it clearly here on the spring lock.. 1 hour ago, Smoggy said: Thanks for the reply jlp. makes perfect sense once pointed out, and for your input too Frosty, that would have probably been obvious to me had I ever seen this type being used. And now armed with that information I'll likely look to apply the same principles elsewhere. Cheers again guys. My pleasure.. Love to see your item when/ if you make a new one. I will be making a few more as I believe I will be making some more as well as shovels to donate to the NEB for the new forge setups they have if they approve my offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Touch marks! I'd blanked on the term and settled on "trademark". It's an Aphasia thing we all enjoy but a TBI really makes a daily fact. I really like the Zero touchmark, it's there but not in your face and has a strong meme. The front on view makes me see a robot with a couple lip piercings. I'd have trouble not turning it into a happy robot face. Not my mark though, heck I've never made a mark I have it in my mind but I'm not going to stamp my mind of a piece of iron work . . . I HOPE! I think NEB would be horribly boorish if they didn't except donations for work stations. Heck I can't imagine a smithing org that'd say no even if they ended up in Iron in the hat. They'll love them. Oh just went back for another looksee and remembered what I'd change or do differently. I forge the end of the rake to a point for picking clinker and crud out of the fire grate. We have the rake Metalmangler, Mark made us for a forge rake as the main stove tool in the house. The point is excellent for poking a log or getting into tight gaps for adjusting the fire. It also cleans the fire grate in the stove nearly perfectly if just scraping the tops of the bars doesn't do it. Sometimes a piece of wood will have a dirt clod embedded in it, I'm thinking a Swallow nest or heck who knows. Anyway sometimes the things blocking the fire grate isn't a piece of charcoal or ash. Wow, all that long and windy to say I like a pointy coal rake and why. There goes Frosty . . . again! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 1 hour ago, rockstar.esq said: JLP, I'm confused. It sounds like you're saying the crook design reduces the torque at the handle end. I'm imagining the tip pointing straight down in coal, and the user rotating the handle to move the tip left or right in the coal. I would expect that the torque would be a function of the radius from the center of the axis to the tip of the moment arm. Since both examples you gave have the same dimension (1.25") I don't see how they could have any difference in leverage. It seems like the additional weight of the doubled over crook portion would act as a counter weight that would create torque in the opposite direction of the users rotation. I could definitely see that feeling easier to the user. Frosty's point is a particularly good observation that makes a lot of sense to me. That lead me to notice that the crooked tool pulls less material than it pushes as a rake. That makes it possible to quickly push coked material towards the center of the fire, while still being able to deftly move material around the stock. It does make it easier.. Look back at the drawing and while it looks deceptive it actually does work.. the weight has nothing to add as far as a turning tool.. In smacking coal it does.. If you look at how old hand driven items and how there handles were swept away or towards the direction of travel (away was the preference) vs just a straight handle.. There is actually a science behind it and wasn't done simply as a decoration.. Your going to make me break out the geometric function of levers and pivots aren't you.. ?????????? The easiest way to explain it is: If you have a car tire up in the air with no brakes on and you are tightening the lugs after you have taken the old wheel/rim off.. If you put the lug wrench on the off center side (fig 2) You can hold the tire more easily than if you had it as in figure 1.. The tire example is a great one.. If at some point you still don't believe.. Give it a try see which is easier to hold.. You will find that Fig 2 is the easiest almost exactly at the center line of where the lug nut/lug bolt and the center of the axle are in alignment. about 40 degrees of arc swing through this center will offer the proof.. Near perfectly centered is where you will be able to put maximum torque on the wrench while still holding the tire fairly easily even if torqued to 80-90ftlbs as recommended by most auto MFGs.. Forget about holding tire in figure 1 at those torque values unless you are a hulk.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 It's easier to break the lug nut in fig 2 because the moment of leverage against turning the tire is less while the moment of leverage against the nut remains the same. The inertia of the wheel is unchanged so the effect is multiplicative(?) rather than additive. Measure how far the handle is from the center of the tire rim as opposed to the center of the lug nut. Close? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 1, 2016 Author Share Posted October 1, 2016 Just now, Frosty said: It's easier to break the lug nut in fig 2 because the moment of leverage against turning the tire is less while the moment of leverage against the nut remains the same. The inertia of the wheel is unchanged so the effect is multiplicative(?) rather than additive. Measure how far the handle is from the center of the tire rim as opposed to the center of the lug nut. Close? Frosty The Lucky. Yes and no since you aren't using mass to move it. if the tire was in motion then what you wrote would apply as you stated inertia.. As then youd being using the mass of the rotating tire to break the lug nut free.. If you substitute torque for inertia then the answer would simply be "Yes".. In my example the tire is stationary and you are holding the tire with one hand while torquing the lug nut after putting the rim back on the car.. Same applies when loosening the lug nut but you would never be able to hold the tire and break the stiction of the nut and rim.. It's why I used the tire all ready off and putting it on and torquing to value.. there is also a leverage ratio which gets applied as the lever moves by the rotational center of the mass since it's actually a dual orbit affair.. (around the center mass, and off center of the rear of the shaft.. This creates a convergence point if both bodies were rotating or there was the ability to clock the pivot points as in the picture.. center orbit of the whole tire turning. (same as twisting the poker at the center shaft) offset center of the back of the shaft (lug nut/bolt location), and then simply rotating the second point (work end of poker long side) . If you were to look at the end of the poker it would align with the figure 2 vs figure 1.. and figure 1 would align with the blade only coming off one side.. Anyhow, I've had enough.. My brain hurts.. It just works.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 You didn't break many lug nuts on the hoist did you? When the tires are off the ground inertia certainly is a factor, trying to hold the tire with one hand is doing it the HARD way. You apply pressure to the wrench in a quick snap pitting your muscle and the momentum of your mass against the inertia of the wheel to break the nut. We positioned the wrench as directly across the center of the wheel as possible to take as much advantage as possible. Did it professionally for a few years, seasonal tire change-over rush was a heck of a busy time for breaking lug nuts. Dodge lug nuts are left hand thread on the left side you know. No we used impact wrenches most of the time but there were nuts on too tight for the wrench to break and if you tried you'd snap the lug off before the nut broke. Of course the car was always on the lift with a couple tires off so you couldn't set it back on the ground so we had to do it the hard way. It's the same principle at work in your pokers you've reduced the leverage advantage against the handle for the same length rake. Elegantly effective and attractive fire tools. I like them a lot. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 1, 2016 Author Share Posted October 1, 2016 5 hours ago, Frosty said: You didn't break many lug nuts on the hoist did you? When the tires are off the ground inertia certainly is a factor, trying to hold the tire with one hand is doing it the HARD way. You apply pressure to the wrench in a quick snap pitting your muscle and the momentum of your mass against the inertia of the wheel to break the nut. We positioned the wrench as directly across the center of the wheel as possible to take as much advantage as possible. Did it professionally for a few years, seasonal tire change-over rush was a heck of a busy time for breaking lug nuts. Dodge lug nuts are left hand thread on the left side you know. No we used impact wrenches most of the time but there were nuts on too tight for the wrench to break and if you tried you'd snap the lug off before the nut broke. Of course the car was always on the lift with a couple tires off so you couldn't set it back on the ground so we had to do it the hard way. It's the same principle at work in your pokers you've reduced the leverage advantage against the handle for the same length rake. Elegantly effective and attractive fire tools. I like them a lot. Frosty The Lucky. We digressed.. Please don't make assumptions on ability or knowledge.. The idea wasn't on how to change a tire or the right way to do it nor the way an air impact wrench works.. The lift or hoist as you called it irrelevant to the diagram I posted.. It was a way to suggest how in a simple way to see the advantage of moving the leverage point behind the handle with an offset.. I explained the operation in full detail in the post.. All I suggested is": If you want to try it.,. If you don't see the advantage.. Try it on a tire with the wrench or torque wrench on both sides.. as in the diagram.. I never mentioned on tight lug nuts or lug bolts.. Please forget about loosening them.. In the example the tire is getting put back on or the lugs are all ready loose.. LOL>. or If you can figure out a simpler way to explain it be my guest.. Glad you like it.. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 1, 2016 Author Share Posted October 1, 2016 From Wikipedia law of the leverEdit The lever is a movable bar that pivots on a fulcrum attached to or positioned on or across a fixed point. The lever operates by applying forces at different distances from the fulcrum, or pivot. As the lever pivots on the fulcrum, points farther from this pivot move faster than points closer to the pivot. The power into and out of the lever must be the same. Power is the product of force and velocity, so forces applied to points farther from the pivot must be less than when applied to points closer in.[1] If a and b are distances from the fulcrum to points A and B and if force FA applied to A is the input force and FB exerted at B is the output, the ratio of the velocities of points Aand B is given by a/b, so the ratio of the output force to the input force, or mechanical advantage, is given by {\displaystyle MA={\frac {F_{B}}{F_{A}}}={\frac {a}{b}}.} This is the law of the lever, which was proven by Archimedes using geometric reasoning.[2]It shows that if the distance a from the fulcrum to where the input force is applied (point A) is greater than the distance b from fulcrum to where the output force is applied (point B), then the lever amplifies the input force. If the distance from the fulcrum to the input force is less than from the fulcrum to the output force, then the lever reduces the input force. Recognizing the profound implications and practicalities of the law of the lever, Archimedes has been famously attributed with the quotation "Give me a place to stand and with a lever I will move the whole world."[3] The use of velocity in the static analysis of a lever is an application of the principle of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggraham Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 On 9/30/2016 at 1:03 PM, jlpservicesinc said: Post one up when you have a chance.. Love to see it.. I leave a rounded end on the work side.. I used to do an offset bevel, but found I didn't use it enough to have it.. I use a shovel, rake and straight poker/welding feeler as my forge tools.. From a 3/4 inch anchor bolt about 18 inches long. One of my first attempts at long twists. Also an early exercise in drawing out. I originally had just a 90* on the rake end but changed that about two years ago, when I added the curved portion and the offset taper. then rake was too long to hand from forge table without dragging, I then changed the "eye" end to a "hook" end, it's current status until the next 'better idea'. this is a good thing, you can modify your stuff when the need arises, especially tongs. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 2, 2016 Author Share Posted October 2, 2016 5 hours ago, ggraham said: From a 3/4 inch anchor bolt about 18 inches long. One of my first attempts at long twists. Also an early exercise in drawing out. I originally had just a 90* on the rake end but changed that about two years ago, when I added the curved portion and the offset taper. then rake was too long to hand from forge table without dragging, I then changed the "eye" end to a "hook" end, it's current status until the next 'better idea'. this is a good thing, you can modify your stuff when the need arises, especially tongs. George George, Nice rake.. I find I like my rakes to about long enough to go from the far side of the firepot to the forge on my side.. This seems to be the theme I follow.. average length seems to be about 26".. I have 4 of them and 4 straight pokers on the forge.. I know I have 1 of each from the shop, but don't remember when or why I made the other ones.. You did a great job on twisting it up.. Cold or Hot? The loop handle like that will give pretty good control.. I usually turn the work end 90d to the handle this way the handle lays flat in my hand.. The forge setup looks nice.. Hows about a few of that as well.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 JLP Thanks for the replies, I think I understand where you're coming from, however I don't think things add up. If you were point down, pulling up on the poker, the fulcrum would be wherever the axis of the handle meets the axis of the blade. It doesn't matter if the poker is L shaped or crook shaped. The extra bit above the axis is irrelevant to the leverage because the forces are calculated in straight lines off the fulcrum. The distance from the fulcrum to the point of force defines the leverage. It doesn't matter how curvy the lever is, only the distance between the fulcrum and the point where force is applied. That's why we use longer levers, rather than curvy levers. It's my understanding that the swept spokes in pulleys was to aid in casting. It stands to reason that curvy cranks were cast that way for the same reason. I have very little first-hand knowledge of casting so I'm merely repeating what I've heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 3, 2016 Author Share Posted October 3, 2016 2 hours ago, rockstar.esq said: JLP Thanks for the replies, I think I understand where you're coming from, however I don't think things add up. If you were point down, pulling up on the poker, the fulcrum would be wherever the axis of the handle meets the axis of the blade. It doesn't matter if the poker is L shaped or crook shaped. The extra bit above the axis is irrelevant to the leverage because the forces are calculated in straight lines off the fulcrum. The distance from the fulcrum to the point of force defines the leverage. It doesn't matter how curvy the lever is, only the distance between the fulcrum and the point where force is applied. That's why we use longer levers, rather than curvy levers. It's my understanding that the swept spokes in pulleys was to aid in casting. It stands to reason that curvy cranks were cast that way for the same reason. I have very little first-hand knowledge of casting so I'm merely repeating what I've heard. Boy, what is a girl to do.. Please go back to the drawings.. The distance from the fulcrum to the point is the difference.. if the handle is in the center.. Or the pivot. then in theory you would gain a small advantage vs a bent 90d straight off the shaft.. Since the fulcrum/pivot point are the same as the center of the shaft.. A bent back and hooked rake has the leverage point behind the pivot instead of in front of it like a 90D poker.. So in theory you have moved the fulcrum more towards the center of the hooked piece vs to one side of the shaft. Okay.. I can see you guys simply don't get it.. While yes, one could say a swept cast iron spoke was done that way to offset some of the forces of the casting cooling.. it's not only castings that were done that way. and it goes way beyond why cast iron has swept spokes.. It also has to do with torque transmission, etc, etc.. . It has to do with how a swept spoke will lead a socket/shaft around vs a straight spoke.. A swept shaft on a handle will pull or push in a straighter action than a straight shaft which will create more of a side load as the shaft center pivot since the handle is mounted to the opposite side.. Really the whole thing is irrelevant.. Just sharing the knowledge but you guys have to be willing to do some homework on your own.. The tire thing works on the same principle.. Anytime you move a pivot onto the other side of a pivot,fulcrum, etc etc.. the force becomes less on the other side.. It will ease the work at hand.. I don't know how to explain it any simpler than I all ready have.. Don't believe me make 2 poker's exactly the same except put the hook on and learn for yourself.. Sorry but really I've had enough of the whole thing.. Make pokers how ever you would like. It's all good.. Sorry, and not to be rude, but this isn't something I find important enough to spend any more time on.. Thanks for all the replies.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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