H3xx Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 Okay, So I'm working on getting a forge up and running, and I really don't have any questions about that. My question is concerning Anvils. I have a set of Auto body Dollies that I've used once, and never picked them up again. I know they're built for hammer on metal abuse, but I figured I would ask first. If I welded one or all of them to a post, maybe so they fit in it like a hardy hole tool, so I can interchange them? I'm strapped for cash and would like to get a usable anvil as cheaply as possible, but I wanted to get a second opinion so as to make as few mistakes as possible. This isn't a picture of my dollies, but I have one of each of these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eseemann Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 The first thing most people will tell you is "if you put your location on your profile it would help" and it is true. Where are you located? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 Find a place that repairs forklifts and ask about getting a busted tine---telling them it's for use as an anvil. (here's an example: http://www.marco-borromei.com/fork.html ) I buy blocks of steel at my local scrapyard for 20 cents a pound so an 70 pound chunk (4"x4"x8") is about US$14 and makes a fine starting anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H3xx Posted May 25, 2016 Author Share Posted May 25, 2016 56 minutes ago, eseemann said: The first thing most people will tell you is "if you put your location on your profile it would help" and it is true. Where are you located? Okay, Location updated. 37 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: Find a place that repairs forklifts and ask about getting a busted tine---telling them it's for use as an anvil. (here's an example: http://www.marco-borromei.com/fork.html ) I buy blocks of steel at my local scrapyard for 20 cents a pound so an 70 pound chunk (4"x4"x8") is about US$14 and makes a fine starting anvil. I'll keep that in mind. Do you have an opinion on the auto body dollies? The heal dolly has a nice flat surface, and the Comma dolly as a good sloping curve, but I'm wondering if anyone knows something I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 they are normally low grade cast iron, ok for some shaping on thin metal, a cube or cylinder of steel of a decent weight would cost less and be more useful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 Too light and as mentioned generally cast iron; a 16# sledge hammer head would be preferable! (or even a 9# one) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Ling Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 16 minutes ago, H3xx said: Okay, Location updated. just put your location into google maps and found that you aren't to far away. nice to see someone else that isn't all the way on the other side of the country (or state). not that theirs anything wrong with the people that are, actually its kind of cool. Littleblacksmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H3xx Posted May 25, 2016 Author Share Posted May 25, 2016 45 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: Too light and as mentioned generally cast iron; a 16# sledge hammer head would be preferable! (or even a 9# one) Funny you should say that. My Brother in law runs a skidsteer business and I asked him if he had anything, and he gave me this nice big 20lb sledge. Shows me right for being anti social, I go ask a few questions and I find what I'm looking for in one afternoon. Now Just have to figure out how to mount the thing. I should say ahead of time that the bucket of cement method is out, because he only gave me the sledge to borrow. So I have to keep it additive free and with the handle in tact. I think I can take some wood and a bit of rubber and make a high enough stand, with a bit of rubber under the head to keep it from doing too much to the wood... 41 minutes ago, littleblacksmith said: just put your location into google maps and found that you aren't to far away. nice to see someone else that isn't all the way on the other side of the country (or state). not that theirs anything wrong with the people that are, actually its kind of cool. Littleblacksmith I wouldn't say close by, it's definitely not an afternoon trip. But yeah, it's always fun finding out there's real people near you that have similar interests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 Stump! chisel out a hole that sledge fits in; or stump lag down a couple of pieces of 2x6 with a semicircle cut in them probably two or 3 high with the sledge head trapped between them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Ivan Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 Many people turn their nose up at mild steel, but a nice big chunk of mild steel from a scrap yard ($.20-$.40 a lb) will do you well. As Thomas mentioned a nice hefty sledge hammer is great as well. I know at least one full time Smith who prefers his mild steel block anvil over his 200+ lb FISHER anvil which was nuts to me at first but once I used it, I realised block anvils are 100% sweet spot and a real treat to work on. Even if mild steel is used. I make and sell block anvils made from A2 tool steel and have 2 in the shop which I prefer over the Sodorfors often times. Don't worry about what you are conditioned to think an anvil looks like. It is just a heavy thing to absorb/return your hammer blows. Don't over think it and get something to get you started. Once you are rolling, you will have anvils fall into your lap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H3xx Posted May 26, 2016 Author Share Posted May 26, 2016 4 hours ago, Crazy Ivan said: Many people turn their nose up at mild steel, but a nice big chunk of mild steel from a scrap yard ($.20-$.40 a lb) will do you well. As Thomas mentioned a nice hefty sledge hammer is great as well. I know at least one full time Smith who prefers his mild steel block anvil over his 200+ lb FISHER anvil which was nuts to me at first but once I used it, I realised block anvils are 100% sweet spot and a real treat to work on. Even if mild steel is used. I make and sell block anvils made from A2 tool steel and have 2 in the shop which I prefer over the Sodorfors often times. Don't worry about what you are conditioned to think an anvil looks like. It is just a heavy thing to absorb/return your hammer blows. Don't over think it and get something to get you started. Once you are rolling, you will have anvils fall into your lap. I've been researching enough to know that an anvil looks like whatever will work. Be it a simple block of steel or something from ACME. lol I've been interested in Blacksmithing for years, but only recently gotten both the motivation and confidence to try it for myself. Since I'm not going to be able to dissemble this sledge I got today, I'm going to have to get creative with a stand, but my first anvil that I own will probably be either a rail track anvil, or a block anvil. I need to scope out some scrapyards for a source of materials right now, as all the materials I have are two rail spikes and a handful of used lawn mower blades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Ling Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 if the block of steel is larger that the face of your hammer, than your good to go. now don't get me wrong, bigger is better, or at least with most projects. you can do something big on a large anvil but not on a small anvil. Littleblacksmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 Might reconsider that statement, the anvils Vikings forged swords and axes on weren't all that big, a 20# sledge would have been a valuable hunk of steel. Soothing one of the other members posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eseemann Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 Some Vikings did not even have the small anvil. Some used an anvil stone! Mr. Charles, I am under the impression that the reason the Vikings used the small ax to such an impressive effect is you only need a RR spike worth of iron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 Iron was EXPENSIVE, as well as the fact that swinging a heavy headed axe is not going to win many fights. An average axe head, woodworking or battle was about 2-2 1/2 # or 1kg. On the other hand, the tomihawk or pouch axe was about a spike worth of iron and steel, as were some of the Hungarian battle axes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H3xx Posted May 27, 2016 Author Share Posted May 27, 2016 3 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said: Iron was EXPENSIVE, as well as the fact that swinging a heavy headed axe is not going to win many fights. An average axe head, woodworking or battle was about 2-2 1/2 # or 1kg. On the other hand, the tomihawk or pouch axe was about a spike worth of iron and steel, as were some of the Hungarian battle axes. Indeed. The smaller and lighter the blade, the faster it could get in, cut, and let the wielder come out alive. And if it broke, (which happened often in that time due to very low carbon count) it was cheaper to repair if didn't have a lot of metal to it to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Low carbon content means the knife would NOT break, it would bend. Now being made of low grade wrought iron makes a difference in it's strength and failure modes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eseemann Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 I read that the long guns used during the Civil War (or as some call it the War Between the States) were annealed iron with less carbon than 1018 steel. Here is another good one for you, the low-res image is of one guy holding some truck spring that two strikers are turning in to Kukri. The other image is of a different guy working on a Kukri, take a look at his anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Ling Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 O.K. maybe I was wrong.... thanks everybody. now I know. Littleblacksmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H3xx Posted May 27, 2016 Author Share Posted May 27, 2016 12 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Low carbon content means the knife would NOT break, it would bend. Now being made of low grade wrought iron makes a difference in it's strength and failure modes. Unless I'm mistaken, I'm fairly sure that the higher the carbon count, the stronger and more flexible the metal. The lower, the more brittle it is. That was the secret behind the Ulfberht viking swords. They were much higher carbon count than any other steel in the area at the time, making them seem ridiculously strong and maybe even magical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 26 minutes ago, H3xx said: Unless I'm mistaken, I'm fairly sure that the higher the carbon count, the stronger and more flexible the metal. The lower, the more brittle it is. That was the secret behind the Ulfberht viking swords. They were much higher carbon count than any other steel in the area at the time, making them seem ridiculously strong and maybe even magical. You are mistaken I am afraid...at least in the terms you are describing the properties you are. There are huge differences in the types of "strengths/properties"....a glass hard (and brittle) material will hold a cutting edge and be springier but also be less "flexible", a softer material (low carbon mild steel /wrought iron) will bend rather than break, it is something of a trade off in lower tech materials. Higher carbon as in tool steel would render the material capable of being hardened, which makes it "brittle" but then if tempered will make it tougher than in the full hard state ....it still will not bend as radically before failure as low carbon mild steels....but in sword terms it might cut one made of wrought iron in two. Think cold chisel. Of course if you start to add even more carbon you get to cast iron properties (very brittle), which as it put a lot of blacksmiths out of business a few hundred years ago...we all know has no redeeming properties whatsoever.... Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Yeah we need to start throwing in Yield strength, Charpy testing, and a bunch of other properties. I suggest a few MatSci or Metallurgy courses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.C. Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Historically, most sword failures were from bending......and staying bent. Many records talk about warriors pausing mid-battle to stand on their blades. In fact many Viking Age burials have been found with swords bent and twisted almost in a knot. These are examples of LOW CARBON BLADES..primarily iron. Blades such as the Ulfberht blades were higher carbon, yes, and pattern welded iron and steel, but it was the heat treatment, especially the tempering, that allowed the sword to bend..and then "spring" back to shape. Hardened but untempered steel breaks rather than bend and spring back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 You have it backwards, higher carbon is harder (if properly heat treated) wile low carbon in softer and tougher. As to small work surfaces on anvils, think of a power hammer and its dies, the upper and lower are the same size, and with the proper tools and skill they do exelent work. Little Blacksmith and H3xx don't think your being picked on, we have the same questions and misconceptions come up every day. Most of the guys chiming in are either working smiths or smithes with day jobs that get payed dang good money. So if they are spending time answering you, even if they are gruff they think you might just be worth their time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Ling Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 1 hour ago, Charles R. Stevens said: think of a power hammer and its dies thanks, I had never even thought of the obvious. Good point! 1 hour ago, Charles R. Stevens said: Little Blacksmith and H3xx don't think your being picked on I take pleasure in reading ya'lls responses, ever since I joined this forum I've been learning something new everyday. I hope some day to be as knowledgeable as you or glen or frosty, or any of yall. Thanks again for all of the information. Littleblacksmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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