magikk Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 Hi everyone,I'm a newbie to blacksmith work and I'm making plans to build a small building 16ft x 20ft or maybe 20ft x 20ft to work in. I've been working outside but want to get everything under roof so I can work over the winter( really need a hobby for late winter) Right now I'm thinking about putting up a steel building so I don't have to worry about fire.I can probably build with wood for cheaper then I have more fire risk. I figure I'll just put crushed limestone down for a floor.Right now I only have my coal forge and anvil but once I have a dedicated area for metal working want a belt grinder work table and want to move my welders from my garage & maybe even a homemade power hammer.Is condensation more of a problem in the steel buildings.Is the noise more of a problem in a steel building?.Thanks Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 I insulated steel buildings have some issues to be awake of. the sun shining down on the building heats the tin up to a temp higher than ambient, then it radiates down on you. Not an issue if the temp is 50f, but at 100f, 120f radiating down on you sucks. Condensation, not so much a problem if the shop is below freezing or you live in the dessert, but most every where else, moister will condense and drip on all those steel tools. Bad enugh that it condenses on them. 4x150' roles of R11 run between $150-200 around here, one needs to protect the walls from mechanical damage and the celing from birds seeking nesting materials. Fire risk is a relitive thing, the building shell is usualy fairly resistant to sparks (unless it's I plasterd hay bales) but it's other things like trash cans that get you. Lining the shop in tin will prevent hot cutoffs from finding a hiden spot to start a 2x smoldering and delectable radiant heat to keep said 2x from catching so fast when you implicate your trash can. Dry wall will do similar, but it isn't as risistant to mechanical damage. But having a half an hour to recognize and put out a fire before the structure catches is a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 Yes noise is also an issue with a steel building; especially if any noise making equipment is connected into the frame---I have a 6.5" postvise attached to one of the utility poles holding up the roof and when I am working hot and heavy on it the entire wall shakes noisily. As I am in a dry area---relative humidities in the single digits occur fairly frequently I do not have any issue with condensation and as my shop borders on a hay field no issues with noise either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 Finish the interior and insulate if you can afford it. As said already dry wall is susceptible to mechanical damage but it's easy to tack up "bash plates" a sheet of plywood or OSB to armor it in sensitive areas. My bare steel shop drips like crazy on my above the forge but I run propane and it's a water generator. An insulated and finished ceiling would be nice but I'm pretty much out of action building. <sigh> If you want to be extra sure you can spray wood framing with a saturated borax solution and it'll be fire resistant. NOT fire PROOF but resistant. Charles has a different recipe he likes but both are effective within reason. An enclosed shop is a GOOD thing it'll be too small, won't have enough outlets or lights but you're going to love it. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 I just add a 1/3 of boric acid to the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 Funny thing I ran a coal forge in a decrepit 1920's detached wooden garage (had dates burned into the walls with a stove poker!) that had a lot of dried leaves in it for 15 years without any fire problems; though I was free with sloshing water in inaccessible places when I was worried. A couple of months after we sold that house it burned down mysteriously. (no power to it; not sized for modern vehicles so no cars in it--- so no reason for it to catch fire) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 A lot of fire prevention comes down to common sense. If you have piles of stuff lining the walls, places under shelves that collect leaves and dust bunnies, you are asking for trouble. A clean clear work area removes a lot of issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notownkid Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 7 hours ago, DSW said: A lot of fire prevention comes down to common sense This should be priority #1, We deal in Sparks and Sparks cause fires. So many fires are started by foolishness, (shop, home. work) not being aware of your surroundings. Be careful of doing woodworking and metal grinding in the same shop. As a firefighter I saw 2 fires start from this one from an angle grinder and one a stationary one blasting their sparks against a wooden wall and falling behind the bench into sawdust. a few hrs. later we were there in full force for a full blown fire and we saved nothing. My cutoff saw is on wheels and I roll it to the sliding doors and blast outside. If I've have to do some grinding inside I go back to the shop after a couple hrs. to check. The Old Ounce of Prevention story worth more than a lb. of cure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 I have a hot shop (dirty shop) and a cold shop (clean shop) and a 10'x10' roll up door between the two both are steel construction; but the cold shop has the combustibles in it! (save for coal, charcoal and propane) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mtnstream Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 Shop fire is a big fear of mine...former wildland firefighter so admittedly a little paranoid. I leave the lights on in the shop after I finish grinding, forging or cutting to force me to go back and check before finishing for the night. I use slate panels (old school blackboards) to shield the sparks in my grinding area. I like the idea of hot and cold areas, I need to do better there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 It's amazing how many different combustible liquids seem to build up in a knife shop; plus buffing swarf, saw dust, etc. I try to sweep and let the winds blow stuff out the door (10'x10' doors at both ends of the clean shop); but I just feel better doing grinding, forging and welding (arc and forge) away from all that stuff. Wildfire danger is a big one out here, we just had a steel roof put on the house and my wife's spinning studio (she chose the colour to match the one already on the smithy!) and one of the selling points was decrease in fire danger from blowing embers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gote Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 It depends upon what you do and how you do it. Most older smities in my part of the world (including mine) are built from wood. I have been working a litte in one that had been going for some four hundred years and was in principle a log cabin. BUT we do not keep any wood shavings or saw dust or other easily ignited materal in the shop unless it is enclosed in some kind of box and we do NOT mix woodworking with metal working. Usually the smity is in a fair distance from other buildings. Solid wood does no ignite all that easily. The problem comes not with the wall material but with other combustible and easily ignitable stuff that should be kept OUT. When I stop working I do not rush out. I first rake out the fire then put all tools and other paraphernalia back to proper places. In the meantime the fire is cold and anything smouldering would be noticable by the smell. It has not happened yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 Spaced away from other buildings---sounds like the original uses felt there was a possible issue with fire. Reading histories of the American Frontier Fire was not uncommon and what we have left us is rebuilt or "lucky" structures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gote Posted May 7, 2016 Share Posted May 7, 2016 At times also kitchens were spaced away from other buildings - by those who could afford it. Saunas also used to be spaced out. (So were privies.) Fire was a problem. Many Swedish towns were partly burnt down (and I mean big parts) in the nineteenth century. In my own town, the big fire started in a bakery. Fire hazard in those days was mosty coming from cracked chimneys or sparks igniting roofs from the outside. Today it usually is old faulty electrical installations. My own experience is of course very limited. I have been to eight Swedish smities. Seven of these were built in wood. Most of them had been in use over a hundred years. If fire hazard had been a serious problem they would have been built in other materials. I am talking abut solid wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magikk Posted May 9, 2016 Author Share Posted May 9, 2016 Hi again and thanks for all the advice.I decided on going with a steel constructed carport .I can get a building 18' x 20' delivered and installed for $1050 I'll finish the side walls with steel siding for another $200 .I'll probably close the ends with Plywood.I'm more comfortable with wood construction so it'll be easier for me to frame in doors and windows.I'm thinking of just running porcelain light fixtures with LED bulbs since I most likely wont be heating the building over the winter.Thanks again Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Most steel carport companies have end kits. If you buy one with 2" square tubing on 4' centers it will be easer to finish (steel building sulpliers sell white Mylar backed R11 fiberglass insulation in 150' roles. If not summer heat, winter condensation isues will make you apretiat it. The round tubing isn't to bad to work with but the 5' centers are a pain, as every thing in the building trades is made for 4' centers. Myers is a small horse barn made out of a carport. Note that standard lumber instead of plywood or smart board gets past the 4 vs 5' issue but it still bites to insulate. Note the insulation is meant to be exposed, so unless birds are an issue it is usualy only coverd on the walls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 In my opinion, fire proofing is usually more important after the fire burns down the shop that it was when budgeting the expense to build it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 8 minutes ago, Steve Sells said: In my opinion, fire proofing is usually more important after the fire burns down the shop that it was when budgeting the expense to build it . Absolutely, you gotta know what to write on Insurance claim papers! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magikk Posted May 10, 2016 Author Share Posted May 10, 2016 Hi again ,Charles your horse barn looks really great.I had thought about getting some rough cut hemlock from one of the small local saw mills but then I'd have to cut each board to get a straight edge so they would butt up tight.A lot more work but would look a lot better.The carport I'm getting is built on 4 foot centers so that will be good.The insulation for steel buildings how does it stay in place? I like the sliding doors too never thought of that.Thanks Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 One can always lap the siding. As to the insulation, it can be held in place by the outer skin, but more realistically install some kind battins. The interior skin will certainly help. If you don't install a celing, birds can be an issue, some install wire mesh to protect the celing insulation. You can always buy matching tin from a metal building supplier. If you want to get fancy, but honestly a board paneled interior or OSB panels will hold up well and protect the insulation in the inside. Not as fire resistant drywall, but much more durable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKDRAGON Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 For me a steel arch building was a must..not cheap but mine is 35W x 60L x 18 T= 2100 sqft. i have seen way to many wood shops burn down. mine can handle high winds,snow and as i am way out in the forrest far less likely to go up in a forrest fire. I find it muffle noise to the point if your 12 feet away i have a hard time hearing you.being so big all i except in winter is my wood stove to take the nip out of the air and a forge helps out also. in summer i use big fans and that helps.i do not like to mix mediums (arts+crafts/contaminate )=mix wood with grinding and other mediums.( do blade+blacksmithing,damascus,pottery,leather,stain glass,mokume-gane and jewelry plus other things), so on on side i built three 10'x10' rooms with 2" x 6" so i can insulate.and the 300 sqft above i use for storage a big plus. i am in the process of building two 14' x 14' rooms these will add 392 sqft also for either more rooms or storage ,one for a office and the other as a fine finishing rooms. i will use window ac units where needed. my floor is 4" concrete with rebar., I took a great idea from a local friend doug merkel of suger grove nc a master blacksmith. I had like he did a 15' x 20' no concrete forging pit and for the floor vs dirt i use crushed tn blue stone for if i forge and drop anything it will not shatter on the crushed stone and it is great standing on vs back killing concrete. i have only a small back door and a big aircraft sliding door in front so for the most part is very secure.i left enough space between rooms on both sides so i can get later heavy machinery in as i find more $. this was not done over night but as i get $$ .Alot of thought has gone into this and it paid off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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