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having trouble forge welding


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Hello all.

I've been attempting to learn to forge weld & it's not been working.  Not at all. 

I'm using a charcoal forge. Borax for flux. Been cleaning my pieces up reallllllllllllllly  clean. Bringing things up to a bright orange heat. 

And i get a nice gooey mess that just falls apart right away. 

What am I doing wrong?

 

Thank you. 

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I would love to spend some time with an experienced smith. Couldn't agree more tthat's it's a mistake that i hhaven't been able to yet. The opportunity has not presented itself yet.

II've been working with mostly 1018, with a little 4140 ordnance steel I had on hand.

It falls apart from the get go pretty much, and yes its a simple lap weld I've been trying.  Just not so simple right now.  

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I probably got lucky;

I watched many youtube videos and read four or five books on the subject. I tried it one day and it worked. Then that same day I started sticking two separate pieces together and thought I was really somebody. probably walked two inches taller that day.

What makes the A36 and 1018 so very easy is to watch for the sparks. When you see the first bit of sparks it is there. Some folks even allow it to spark for a few seconds. Then I pull it. Crack it against the corner of the anvil and still holding it in the air JUST above the anvil face, I grab the ***SMALL*** hammer and when the hammer is coming down to strike, the piece to be welded is about 1/8" off the face of anvil. Then the piece is struck. It's not a forge strike. It is a weld strike. One or two light strikes and then I flip it over and do same. Then it's done. Time to clean it a bit and flux. Reheat. Takes two/ three welds to get a complete weld, at THAT spot.

 

Some guys flux at red heat and others at orange heat.I forget why. Difference in flux or maybe steel??? I do both for 1018 but some say if you do that at orange the steel is oxidizing then and so the flux won't work. But I do it at orange...and sometimes at a red. But flux removes the oxidation so it seems nobody can agree on anything. I feel your pain.

 

Too much flux I hear is also a problem.

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Like S says there are a whole lot of differing factors and people have success with a number of different methods.  When I have an issue welding I go back to the basics: clean metal, sufficient and "not crusty" flux, and increase the heat!   Also are you "tapping" it together and not whomping it?  Many people start out hitting it way to hard.  If possible ask around an ABANA affiliate meeting for someone to work you through a couple of welds.  A nice  practice would be just to take the 1018 (and it's real 1018 and not A36 being sold as mild steel?) and just bend over the end and weld it to itself---or make rings for trivets from it.

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I have taught folks who have never even forged before how to weld in 15 minutes. It's not difficult to do, but do one thing wrong and it won't work. Sparkling heat is easiest for mild steel (though I have welded at a much lower heat with no flux too). LIGHT taps to set your weld, then on the next heat (after you brush and re-flux) a little harder, and 3rd heat, draw down and blend. Depending on stock size you can a hieve all the steps in one heat and be done with it depending on intended application. Keep your steel clean and move like a soldier "slow is smooth and smooth is fast" meaning KNOW every single move you need to make BEFORE you come out of the fire. Don't jumble around looking for your hammer or tripping over stuff on the ground. Lastly, don't look at it, HIT IT!! Do not waste heat looking at your piece once it is out of the fire, hit it! Otherwise you will miss your window for succeeding in a weld. You'll get it. If someone is nearby, see if they or you can stop by. You will be welding in no time at all. 

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No. I haven't read the existing thread on this. I'm limited to a cell phone right now for Internet, & it is frustrating to say the least. 

It is 1018. Due to my employment i got in the habbit of always getting a mtr when i get metal of any type. Has saved my bacon more than once. 

I thought i was sstriking to hard, so i switched to a 20oz claw hammer with the same results. I'm strongly suspecting that I'm not getting my material hot enough. I have a better blower arriving today. So maybe that will help. I keep my work area clean and clear. I'm already a klutz, i try not to tempt fate. 

 

Thank you for the link Steve Sells. Very helpful.

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more knowledgeable folks will be along but there is a glaringly obvious red flag here;

1. you said orange heat. So that ain't a problem so doubt you need more air to the fire.

2. you said it falls apart. High carbon steel can fall apart when too hot but not all. I can burn spring steel easily when welding and it won't fall apart.

What about sparks? You see any?

The falling apart statement concerns me.

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I thought I had been seeing sparks, but maybe it could have been embers from the charcoal. 

Can be ffrustrating trying.  But it's still fun to try. I'll be giving it another go tonight. Be watching closer for sparks to. I don't think i really understood the significance of the sparks. 

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low carbon welds at high heat. Higher carbon welds at a lower heat. Thus wrought iron welds at very high heat but no sparks are thrown like a carbon steel will. 1018 will begin to throw off some sparks when it is right there. But I don't use charcoal. I use soft coal and there are no sparks from the coke fire. When I just see some (for 1018) it is there and I pull it and hit it.You probably see a few sparks from the fire even w/o heating steel.

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I'm not a fantastic forge welder, but for what it is worth, one of the things that hasn't been discussed is the cleanliness of your fire and the amount of scaling you are getting on your metal.  When I was taught about forge welding in a coal fire, it was emphasized that it is important to have a "fully developed, clean" fire to heat your metal in.  As much coal burned to coke as possible, and limited clinker.  The idea is to maximize the heat output of your fire while minimizing the excess air.  There are typically three zones to your solid fuel fire, oxidizing (at the bottom where the tuyer discharges the air), neutral (in the middle) and reducing (at the top).  If you are in the oxidizing section your metal will scale up more rapidly and make it more difficult to weld.  I'm guessing this will be similar with a charcoal fire.

The direction I got from accomplished forge welders was to heat the metal in the neutral zone of the fire till it is yellow/orange with a melted butter like surface (possibly hotter for low carbon, mild steel), but preferably not sparking much.  Then turn down the air and let it soak up the radiant heat for  a count of ten before whipping the metal out of the fire and lightly tacking the weld together.

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3 hours ago, Crazy Ivan said:

I have taught folks who have never even forged before how to weld in 15 minutes. It's not difficult to do.

Easy for you to say, Pete! So when do your travels extend to Australia? I need a lesson.

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24 minutes ago, ausfire said:

Easy for you to say, Pete! So when do your travels extend to Australia? I need a lesson.

I do hope to head to Australia in the future. When I get there is dependant entirely on how much business I am able to get for myself between now and then. There might be some forge welding juju that rubbed of in that hammer I sent you. It should be there sometime this week. It does that sometimes lol. Right now I need to heal....just threw out my back again 10 minutes ago. Good thing I live with a massage therapist. 

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make sure not to have your steel right over where the air enters, or else it will oxidize and you wont be able to weld. mound up the charcoal, so that it uses the excess oxygen and keeps in the heat.

                                                                                                                 Littleblacksmith

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Crazy Ivan if you are up for traveling come to Nebraska too, My father in law is a chiropractor and lives across the road.  We could forge all day and then get adjusted.  He also likes swinging a hammer so he could adjust while we forge. 

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18 minutes ago, matto said:

Crazy Ivan if you are up for traveling come to Nebraska too, My father in law is a chiropractor and lives across the road.  We could forge all day and then get adjusted.  He also likes swinging a hammer so he could adjust while we forge. 

I'll be in touch about that for sure. 

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My new blower works a heck of a lot better. Moves 3-5 times the air as my jury rigged one. So that should help. I get lots & lots of sparks, but they're all ash & embers. Didn't have much time to fiddle with things today as I'd hoped. 

 I think i may just bite the bullet & make a coal forge. Whole heck of a lot more heat for the same volume of fuel if i understand correctly. 

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Leave out the 4140. I usually have a student do a forge weld on their first session, it gets that out of the way and they can concentrate on what I'm showing them. Try taking the mild and bending it in a ring that holds it self closed tightly. Let it cool down and clean it shiny where it crosses. Sprinkle a LITTLE flux in the join and let it hold itself in tight contact.

Slowly bring it to watery yellow QUICKLY bring it to the anvil and give it a heavy but NOT HARD blow, maybe two. Now leave it in contact with the anvil on the join and watch the color change. If it changes evenly across the joint it's set. If there's a line it's not set. In either case, brush the joint, reflux and take it back to the fire. Repeat including color text.

Remember flux is NOT GLUE. it's only real purpose is to prevent oxidization, if you're using it to squirt dirt and scale out of the weld your weld isn't clean.

Hooking up with a local smith is going to do you more good than every blacksmith in the world TELLING you how especially online.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Borax, sand, glass, dirt, egg shells, anything that melts and forms a liquid on your material, wether wrought iron, mild steel or tool steels
will work as your flux. Time and time again I have experimented with forge welding and trying to find WHY it works and when not and WHY again.

Have you ever tried to grab a bread crumb in a kitchen sink filled with water or a hair in a filled bath tub?
You will find that the moment you try to grab them with your fingers, they shoot out just before your fingers touch. It's hard to grab.

The same thing happens in forge welding. Of all videos I have seen, all smiths I have seen live, all videos I have posted myself and my personal research videos,
they are the welds that have "squirting out" effect that always work.
Thus upon the first impact, flux, or whatever, shoots out of the weld seam. If this doesn't happen, 99% of the time it didn't weld.

The flux, whether sand, borax, bla bla bla, pushes all dirt out from the weld seam, making the surfaces clean enough to bond when they touch.

 

What is a weld without flux?
Instead if using, borax, sand etc. you use something else. You use scale. Yes fire scale!
The melting point of mild steel is somewhere around 1450 C - 2642 F give or take.
The melting point of fire scale is 1369 C - 2496F. It is this that allows me to do a "fluxless" weld. The scale melts and cleans my surface for welding.
Hence I like a little oxidizing fire for my welds on wrought iron and mild steels, it forms the liquid scale faster.
Once the liquid scale is present, it can't oxidize any further, it is a barrier for the oxygen.
The iron or steel won't further oxidize unless the scale drips off and exposes the steel, which then again forms a liquid layer again.

Why doesn't this tend work for tool steels (higher carbon content, higher than 0.45%C)
If you look up the iron carbon phase diagram, you can see that as the carbon % increases, the melting point decreases.
So when you bring these tool steels up 1369 + C --- 2496 + F, you are too close to its melting point. 
The steel structure tends to be ruined.

 

GRRRRR Glad I saved my post. a BIG part is still missing and IFI won't let me post! GRRRR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZyhORADu5g

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