Forgemaster Blacksmith Model temp problem

[Peter Newman]

Hey All!

 

So still learning lots everyday about Smithing. I have been learning on a Coal forge and have one all set to go into a building once it is built when the ground hardens here in Oregon!

But in the mean time I have a Forgemaster Blacksmith model... ya I caved and just bought one instead of building one though i may still build one down the road... I wanted to get to where I could practice things at home that I am learning at the shop (40miles away)  hence the gasser as i can open up the garage door while its raining out side and bang away......

My problem is with the bottle regulator running at 12 pounds and the needle valve set to highest setting... I left a pieace of 1/4 inch in the forge for 10-15 minutes and it only got to bright yellow.... what the heck??!!! My mentor is a coal only guy and has never really used them in the means I am trying to...

if any of you can kick me in the right direction i would appreciate it!

 

Pete

 

[ThomasPowers]

So what did the manufacturer tell you when you consulted them?

[Peter Newman]

Have a pretty busy day job and have not had the chance to call them just thought I would post something up here as thought I couldn't be the only one with the forge and someone more experienced may have some tips

[Mikey98118]

I have always preferred to buy tools, rather than build them. Seventeen years ago, I started building burners, forges, and casting furnaces, because all the comment I'd heard from people who bought forges was only about their dissatisfaction with them. These days Chile Forge puts out a good product; One guy in England puts out a good product; that leaves a whole lot of unsatisfactory forges for sale...

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Peter,

I have several gas forges and my Forge master for 15years., You can forge quite well in the bright yellows . I agree it takes a while for it to reach temperature .  The only adjustment you can make is the fuel. pressure with the needle valve wide open .  You can bump up the pressure to 14 psi and it will help but watch your dragons breath , I never used it to bring metal up to forge welding heat because I preferr a coal forge. I guess it's possible but I would check with the Forge Master folks for their suggestions .. Iam interested in what you find out. 

Forge on and make beautiful things

Jim

[Peter Newman]

thanks all! I have dropped an email to Forgemaster last night I also prefer the coal for the welding but its been a wet winter here. Can't wait for the spring season that is right round the corner.  Just got in my Swage Block yesterday and looks like I have about 4 hours of grinding (is sand casted) and a stand to build.

Other reason i picked up the Forgemaster is I can vision down the road setting up a booth at some of the local fairs and Renaissance fairs and so on. I may shoot to find a small rivet forge down the road for this but i wanted to try a Gasser... 

Thanks again all

Pete

[Peter Newman]

so I have sent three emails into them one over thier web form and two to the email the site lists as the contact... no response so far

Have been using it as a bending metal forge and am not pleased... Can wait for the rainy season to end to get my "forge shed built up" then i can just use my Coal one.

Guess i am just ruined or spoiled using a coal forge on the weekends down at shop.

 

will try and get some pics up here soon maybe frost or one of the other Gurus can give me a pointer of whats wrong!

 

 

[Dom]

Did something ever came out of this?

I'm interested in the same model and originally thought that ForgeMaster made great products. Now not so sure.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I would go with Mikey98118 and buy the Chile Forge, if I were in the market. Too many that have a Forgemaster are less that happy with them.

[Dom]

Thanks for the tip Irondragon.

Being in Canada I have less options without having to pay horrible shipping fees.
But the NC Whisper Lowboy is available locally and there's Mighty Forge (a Canadian company) which I don't know much about.

[Mikey98118]

WHY BUY A Forgemaster TM ?

This is the opening question of their sales spiel. After looking at what their site is offering, I can only marvel at such an example of "leading with your chin". For the sake of all the people who own one of these things, I will resist temptation, and merely marvel at how such out of date technology can still be offered in the marketplace.

Case in point: Every model features a burner with a right angle bend in the air intake. Eighteen years ago it was still commonplace to see a 75% degree bend in really OLD burner designs in really old forges with burners aiming down into their interiors from top-dead-center positions on rectangular forge shapes. It makes no since to put a kink in naturally aspirated burner (let alone a right angle) without a darn good reason! Well, we might do it to ensure the air intake is kept well out of the way of the burner's exhaust. But then, the same goal is accomplished by positioning a burner--sans kink--facing down at an angle into the forge; and yes, that can by down in a rectangular forge shape; but then the burner won't be facing straight down into the forge, right? On the other hand, we have discovered that pointing the flame straight down isn't a desired goal; at best it is sometimes a practical necessity. Angle burners in rounded forge enteriors swirl nicely; straight down into rectangular spaces don't do that very well, though.

What can we say about a forge design that features a full right angle bend in the middle of a WEAK burner design? We say the same thing as with great granddaddy's Tin Lizzy; it belongs in a museum; not on the freeway...

 

[Frosty]

Dom: I don't have anything to add to what Mike said already though I have to say I admire his "lead with your chin" comment.

I don't see anything to recommend the "Mighty" Forges, they seem to share all the disadvantages of a Forgemaster. I didn't convert currency so I expect they aren't quite as expensive as they look. I know about shipping, I have a LOT farther to shop and ship than you do. If it's too expensive to build I'd sure as heck shop for a better forge for the money than a Mighty product. 

Why aren't you just building a forge yourself? It really isn't nearly as hard as some folk make it look. You only need basic shop skills though you might need to make friends with someone who owns a drill press. A saber saw, hand drill pop rivet tool or sheet metal screws pretty much cover the tool list. Well, okay a utility knife and plastic tub for the ceramic blanket and hard refractory. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Ricko13]

Hi Dom,

I too was looking at buying a forge a while back and was taken back by the shipping costs. Luckily I found a local guy that sold me his. Now that being said, I have starting to get the stuff required to build a slightly bigger one, if you need a hand for sourcing stuff, let me know. So far the best bet is to talk to Wayne (http://www.waynecoeartistblacksmith.com/Forge_Supplies.html) to get some idea of the lining components. I just ordered some stuff from him and the price was decent even with shipping to Canada.

I live in Quebec (but I mark Ottawa since people know that town), so if you aren't too far, let me know and I would be more than happy to lend a hand.

-R

[Dom]

Thanks Mikey, Frosty and Ricko.

I'm not much of a builder myself and would prefer to buy a professionally assembled forge than trying my luck at building one.
Who knows, in a couple of years that may change but for now let's say I'd like to start with a reference model.

So Mikey does not recommend FM forges as they are an old design. And Frosty says that Mighty Forges seem to be cut from the same mold.
I did not completely understand why the old design is so bad but from what I gather only Chile Forge while their straight but inclined burners are to be truly
recommended. I guess that NC Tool Co isn't much better than ForgeMaster or Mighty then?

Thank you for your help, once more.

[Frosty]

Dom: As Mike said there has been some serious improvements in technology since Forgemaster settled on their style forge. The short list is: #1 Linear type burner, #2 a 90* bend in the burner tube.

A linear burner is one where the air intake is in line with the burner tube. I have no idea why but it just isn't as efficient as a "Jet Ejector" type with the air intakes at a 90* angle to the gas jet and tube. 

Like so many home built burners the tube is straight so turning a 90* bend seriously reduces it's ability to induce air due to increased back pressure. Drawing less air means you must use a smaller gas jet at a higher pressure putting less flammable fuel air mix in the forge per second. It just doesn't make as much heat BUT it's moving faster so it doesn't stay in the forge as long.

The MIghty turns a 90* and loses effectiveness as well.

If you look through both site's pictures you just don't see one hotter than mid orange.

The NC burners are linears with a bend. It's only a 45 but it's still a bend. The reduced induction again means smaller jet, higher psi and shorter hang time of fire in the chamber. Better but not a lot.

Check out the Chile forge site. They're using a Jet ejector type burner (look a LOT like Porter burners to me) without a bend and every pic shows high yellow heat and less dragon's breath.

Frosty The Lucky.

[metalmangeler]

I bought a Forgemaster that I have used for over 20 years, a lot of things have improved since then, I still use my Forgemaster, (it is paid for) when I bought it they had a better reputation than NC forges. The floor of the Forge Master is set up to create a swirl. It does become chipped after awhile and then is less effective. I have been thinking I might get a new forge, I have not ruled out the Forgemaster. Thought I might add this to give a different perspective, I do not think it  is a terrible forge, there have been a lot of days it has put out pretty substancial amounts of forgings.

[Frosty]

The forge you bring to the fair isn't a Forgemaster is it Mark? If so they took a giant step backwards changing burners.

I didn't say they are terrible just that there are better out there now.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

I don't like discussing well known brand name forges; it always turns out like this. The problem is improved techniques are discovered every year. But the old forge designs do not change bother changing. A couple of decades go by, and they are totally outdated. Then, it comes down to being "nice" or telling the bald truth; I hate that choice. Anyone can go to eBay and see better forges for way less money; not because foreign manufacturers are so high minded, but just because they pay some attention to the last two decades of obvious improvements. There; I've said it. No, I need to go rinse the bad taste out of my mouth. 

[metalmangeler]

Frosty I bring a different forge to the fair.

Mike I am sure you are right regarding burner design, and the forge body design. That said the OP has this forge now, I think it is  a workable tool. Mine would get to sparking heat, with a new liner, likely needing more fuel than other models. the reason I would consider another has to do with access and perhaps famililarity I am used to a tin llizzy.

[Mikey98118]

As long as you choose it with your eyes wide open...enjoy.

[Dom]

Thanks again guys for the advice, I've asked for a quote including shipping for a Chile Tabasco, protective shelf and stand to see how much the whole shebang would cost me.

While on the subject, any opinion on Diamond Ironwork's forges? They are quite a bit cheaper and their burners aren't bent.

[Mikey98118]

If you're talking about Diamondback forges, I looked on their site, and they have better burners in a better forge design; it brings up heavy stock to yellow-white heat in short order. However, if you buy this forge, I would suggest that you read closely on this sight about finish coatings for ceramic fiber products, to keep it properly maintained, and buy one of the the forge lined with ceramic board; not ceramic wool.

[Dom]

2 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

If you're talking about Diamondback forges, I looked on their site, and they have better burners in a better forge design; it brings up heavy stock to yellow-white heat in short order. However, if you buy this forge, I would suggest that you read closely on this sight about finish coatings for ceramic fiber products, to keep it properly maintained, and buy one of the the forge lined with ceramic board; not ceramic wool.

Thanks Mikey once again for your help. Yes, Diamondback forges were those I was talking about and I will do some more reading.
But what comes to mind is what makes Chile's ceramic blanket less maintenance prone than the Diamondback's?

[Mikey98118]

You are right; they are using wool, rather than board. So, in addition the the same hot surface coating I recommended for the Diamondback forge, I would strongly suggest spritzing colloidal silica rigidizer into the blanket. Still, the board will last longer; maybe a couple of years longer. On the other hand, you will have to reline both of them eventually. Of course the Chile forge will go on outputting more heat with less fuel forever, while the Diamondback's two burners will use more fuel to give less heat forever. So, which forge is going to cost more to run forever?

[Dom]

Stacie at Chile Forge as confirmed that the forge is rigidified with colloidal silica when it is built. So I should not need to treat it further.

So a Chile Forge Tabasco + protective shelf + stand would come at 1260$ USD shipped to Canada before import duty taxes.

In comparison, a NC Whisper Low Boy with Open end ports and the NC Tool Forge Stand would come in after converting to USD (for the sake of comparison) at 841$ before taxes and can be picked up locally.