A beginner looking for some knowledge

[Kinighteth]

Hi everyone.

to start with I am new to blacksmithing, honestly that is a bit of an understatement. Being as I have yet to actually put hammer to anvil, I am not sure you could even say I am new to it lol. However, I do have an anvil and I have a makeshift forge which I plan to upgrade. And I have also done lots of research, which I like to do prior to doing anything. I intend to have my first attempt at smithing this weekend and I would like to primarially focus on Damascus and other forms of pattern welding.

 This leads me to some of my first questions I have not been able to find answers to in all of my research. 

- Timascus: I inderstand it is patented but I don't understand, can titanium not be pattern welded like steel? And if so would this be infringing upon the patent?

- I also understand titanium is not a suitable blade material, but if used as a layer in Damascus (if that is possible) would it compromise the integrity of the blade material? And if not could it be colored as it is in Timascus? 

- and as for colors, how are colors achieved in Damascus? I have seen a knife made of Damascus that had some truly remarkable blues and purples, it was a video on you tube of a MSC mick strider custom cobalt forged knife. How are these colors achieved? Is it particular metals that when etched turn those colors? Or is it by anodizing? 

- has anyone got a good reference on where I can learn what different metals will bring what characteristics IE blacks, Greys, and silvers and so on in Damascus and mokune gane? 

- and finally when anodizing can one anodize and not, effect the hardness of their heat treat?

 

Thank you you very much in advance!

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

If you add your location to your profile so it shows under your avatar you may be surprised how many people may be in your area that may be able to help you out.

 

I would suggest that you use the search feature, as there are tons off posts regarding pattern welding, and a lot of your questions may already have been answered.

 

I would also say that starting off with pattern welding may not be the best idea. 

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised hw many of the IFI gang live within visiting distance.

I see in your research you haven't been reading the Iforge sections or I wouldn't have to give you my standard advice to new folk wanting to learn the craft making blades. <sigh>

Learn to blacksmith first. Once you've built the basic skills sets to an intermediate level changing materials, hammers, etc. are only adjustments rather than learning a new skill the hard way.

Some colors in steel is achieved as temper colors and some alloys have different shades or temperatures where a color runs. No, unless things have really changed you can't annodize steel though Titanium is a reactive metal and some truly shockingly vivid colors are easy to make.

Combining Ti and steel in a billet would be challenging using common blacksmith techniques though it's probably possible using Mokume Gane diffusion welding techniques. good luck though you probably don't have the tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment nor desire to devote the years of work to learn how that Jim Binnion has.

The Ti alloys that make decent blades are hardly workable at the anvil. Ti has hundreds of common alloys some forgable most not.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Kinighteth]

I will have to check to see how to put my location under my avatar thank you! And as far as using the search I have done multiple searches using the search feature on this forum which did not return any results that gave any answers to my questions, but rather brought up more questions lol. 

I don't intend to jump directly into Damascus. I plan to do some basic smithing first but I truly do want to learn Damascus, I think I want to try mokune gane first and see how I fare at that.

And you are correct, I do not have the thousands of dollars of equipment, not the thousands of dollars lol but I do have time, and a significant amount of desire and interest in the skill, so much as to say I can't think of anything I have ever had as much desire to do. And I tend to be a very stubborn person lol. 

 

[Frosty]

Part of the learning curve you're running into now is not knowing what or how to ask questions. It takes a threshold of knowledge to even know what to ask and a little more to understand the answers.

Your first question is about pattern welding titanium an exotic non-ferrous metal. While its been done it wasn't by a "blacksmith" making knives. It was done by jewelers as experiments. Do you know what type of welding forge welding is?

Then you dive in asking advice about an affect technique that's beyond many an advanced bladesmith. So I'll ask you a basic skills question you will have to have MASTERED before you can realistically think about color patination of pattern welded blades. Ready for it?

What does flux do forge welding?

Here's a couple practical tips for searching: First, start reading the sections here on Iforge, start with the ones about beginning. Second, learn the blacksmith's jargon so you know what to call a process, tool, material, etc. Third, Once you know how to word questions and have an idea of what to ask, Google it and insert Iforgeiron in the terms. Google is more forgiving of creative spelling and term usage.

Don't think I'm trying to blow you off or just mess with you, I wouldn't devote as much time to this forum as I do if I didn't enjoy the company of smith and helping folk promote their addiction to the craft. My main interest is helping folk learn the craft but I have better things to do than figure out how to word things so you'll understand when learning the technical jargon is on you. I'll provide information but the job of learning is on you. (that's the "royal" you, not YOU specifically.)

Frosty The Lucky.

[Steve Sells]

I covered it in the knife classes, which is in the knife section, oddly enough

[Charles R. Stevens]

Dont you know, if it dosnt apear on the first page of a google search it didn't happen, Steve?! Lol

[Steve Sells]

or the opening screen of this forum it seems, gotta wonder how anyone ever finds tools in their shop  lol

[Charles R. Stevens]

Steve, how did you know I spent 3/4 of my shop time wondering around in circles looking for tools! Lol

[Kinighteth]

Frosty, 

I understand exactly what you are saying, I have a tendency to try to start on the more difficult level of things and work out the basics while attempting. I guess because if I don't have a position to base the questions  I have to ask that are directly correlated to what I specifically want to do. 

As for the questions, I apparently do not know what type of welding forge welding is. I had thought it was simply forge welding

and as for what does flux do in forge welding, my impressions are that it removes or does not allow oxygen to be trapped between the layers to prevent oxidation and keep the layers from separating when cooling or quenching.

i do plan to do a lot of practice but I also want to attempt a pattern weld to see where I excel or don't excel, to see just how complicated it is and to see what things I need to focus on learning. 

I have done a fair amount of brazing and soldering in my lifetime. I spent 8 years in the Navy as a low voltage electrician so that is where those skills came from. And now my profession is working with steel all day and everyday running CnC plasma cutters and prep with angle grinders. And I have found I enjoy this work and want to take it further. With that gettin material to practice with is no problem, like for example I have a full set of leaf springs from a 51 Chevy COE waiting to be worked with.

And as for my searching I have done I do look beyond the first page of google results, however they tend to be inundated with results that have no relation to what I was looking for.

[Buzzkill]

Kinighteth,

The regulars on here definitely want you to do your homework before they offer much help, and in theory much of what you want/need to know is available on this website.  Unfortunately this forum has been plagued with a number of bugs which make it difficult to navigate lately.  Also you'll probably find that a bunch of pictures don't show up, which makes it tough to see what the authors are talking about in a lot of cases - like Steve Sells knife making classes (at least for me). Often times links in a post will open a new page to exactly the same post when I click on them. Attempting to go to the next page of topics can result in a screen which claims it's loading, but never does. On top of that I believe the blueprint pages are still unusable and the search they keep asking you to use doesn't seem to produce the expected results. 

What I'm trying to say is that the help is here for just about any blacksmithing topic you can think of, but it may be difficult and frustrating to find what you're looking for right now.  The bugs have also (from my observations anyway) influenced some of the regular responders to be a bit more brusque than normal.  It's quite frustrating to type out a detailed response and then be forbidden from posting that response, which may be lost completely if it wasn't copied before attempting to post.

[Frosty]

Uh huh, you LIKE trying to learn a craft by diving into the advanced minutia without the most basic of knowledge. I'm surprised TP hasn't used his vehicle metaphor so I'll use one instead.

Your questions are like a kid who wants to learn to drive by asking what the best fuel for a furmula 1 racer is. Nor would I teach a kid safe gun handling by handing him/er a reloading catalog.

You haven't read enough about what flux is for nor what a forge weld is. There's a good place to start on REAL research, it's out there even if you can't find it on Iforge right now. Forget Youtube, blogs or other urban myth concentration sites till you know enough to filter the silly BS.

Maybe pick up or have the local library ILL some basic blacksmithing titles. I'm a real fan of Alexander Weygers' "The Complete Modern Blacksmith" as one of the best blacksmith boot strap how to books. I believe the how to book list on Iforge is still up, if not search out.

I'm too PO'd about being Forbidden my silly basic metal shop one how to to do it again. If you LIKE learning things the hard way, have at it.

Frosty The Lucky.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Frosty

[ThomasPowers]

Are those springs from a 51 Chevy completely UNUSED?  Otherwise fatigue can make them VERY UNSUITABLE to use.  

(sorry I'm late to the ball but I had a hard drive crash Monday and am still digging my way out; just reset my password here, moving a bit slowly as the same day I had a catastrophic failure of a molar and had to go to Mexico yesterday and have them pull out the remaining pieces---hard drive failures do tend to make you grind your teeth...)

[Frosty]

Are those springs from a 51 Chevy completely UNUSED?  Otherwise fatigue can make them VERY UNSUITABLE to use.  

(sorry I'm late to the ball but I had a hard drive crash Monday and am still digging my way out; just reset my password here, moving a bit slowly as the same day I had a catastrophic failure of a molar and had to go to Mexico yesterday and have them pull out the remaining pieces---hard drive failures do tend to make you grind your teeth...)

And I'm cranky! OUCH Thomas!

Frosty the Lucky.

[arftist]

What Thomas said about the springs. Throw them away or at least stash them deeply for at least a year or so. 

If you want to get new spring steel stock that is fine but ancient used springs can be literally like hand grenades. 

I am only taking the time to tell you this because you are so green. Frosty's suggestion was a very good one. Another very basic yet fairly complete book is either the Edge of the Anvil or the New edge of the anvil. 

While you are at it ( I am being totally serious right now, since you said you were very serious about this) buy a copy (most any year will do) of Metals Handbook, a copy of Machinerys Handbook or Machinst';s Handbook (again, any year will be fine). Both are pretty well needed to pursue this craft beyond level 101.  When you have read the blacksmith book a couple times you will have entirely different questions. There are other good books as well, many of them but the two mentioned are each a rather thorough, quick and well illustrated introduction. You tube videos are at best 50/50

You are just as likely to get complete BS as you are to get the real deal. Once you are acquainted enough to tell though, I good video can help you learn via our most common teaching process, demonstration. Welcome.