Solar Powered Shop

[Hartman96]

I am new to the Smithing game and the forum as well. I have a location to set up shop but i have no power there. I am wanting to run a small welder and a couple of fans or a lot of fans haha, but I was wondering if any of y'all run your shops on solar power, or at least partial solar. If so, what all have you done to make it work best, is it even possible?

[ThomasPowers]

seems like a engine powered welder with a 110 plug would suit you much better

[Charles R. Stevens]

Solar certainly would work for lighting and ventilation, infactshed lights and roof bentilation fans are sold with pamels. I side with TP on the welder, 

[Hartman96]

seems like a engine powered welder with a 110 plug would suit you much better

I'm fairly new to welding as well, what exactly is this?

[Glenn]

Have you considered 12v power? Lots of possibilities and it can be recharged at home.

[DSW]

Electric welding requires a fair amount of power. Even small 110v machines are severely limited by how much power you feed them. Read the fine print, and most will not reach stated max output unless plugged into something larger than a 20 amp 115v dedicated circuit. You really almost need to go to 230v electric to have real power in a welder, or spend big bucks for the better computerized inverter welders to maximize what you get out of lower voltage machines.

 

Simplest solution to power issues is to go to an engine driven welder/ generator. Depending on the size/type, many also allow you to plug in things like lights, grinders, saws etc into their auxiliary outlets. Some of the bigger units produce enough aux power to power many things in a home if need be in the event of a power outage.

 

Smaller units can often be found cheap on CL, especially if they need some engine work. New units run the gambit from relatively inexpensive to "Oh my God" in price. Depends what you need/want.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Your talking $30k or more for full solar or wind, about $5-10k if you have the right circumstances for hydro. A small (2-4 panel setup from Northern) will hook you up for lighting , ventilation and small tools. Then a gas welder (even one of the ones built around a modified alternator like an Atlas) provides a welder and back up power (gas is a way expensive way to make electricity) if you have access to natural gas you may consider a nateral gas carberator for you gen as it will cut down on wear, maintenance and old fuel problems for about the same in operating costs. If you use propane it will cost a bit more to operate but the maintanance issues make it an even draw on somthing you don't use 40hours a week. Another advantage ovee a weder has over a genset and welder is the gen is matched to the welder wile you have to have a very healthy generator to run a weder when they are seperate. 

Less you think you can stack your bateries and make a DC welder that way, it works, but is hard on the batteries, reserve that for getting your off road rig back home. 

Edited July 28, 2015 by Charles R. Stevens

[Frosty]

Solar or wind power sound a LOT better than they are unless you have no alternative. Both have come a long way since my folks bought into it. Just the batteries cost enough to keep a Honda Gen set fueled for a couple years. Yeah, that's my recommendation too, solar maybe for ventilation fans and basic lights. A gas powered generator welder (the Genset we keep talking about) to weld and run serious power tools. Hondas are quiet and start very easily but most any of the new makes are reliable and quality products.

There are other techniques for helping keep a shop cool and ventilated without  using power. One of my favorite is a double roof. The first or inside roof is weather sealed against all the stuff you want your roof to keep out. then there's a second roof above it a few inches, maybe 6" or better but not a LOT higher. This one's eaves over hang the inside roof so the sun doesn't hit it at all and the peak is vented. What the outer roof does is keep the sun ff the inside roof so it isn't radiating the Texas sun on you. The venting allows air to flow and it will, convection will make sure of it. A second set of peak vents in the inside roof will draw more shop air because of the larger flow between the roofs.

Heck, if you have water available a soaker hose to dampen the inside roof will cool things off significantly through evaporation. Sort of like a swamp cooler that doesn't make it muggy inside.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Steve Sells]

Solar powered shop?.  I hope you have lots and lots of money?  If you do then for 10% i will send you a design, I am licensed.  Just send me power requirements for all your machinery and square footage of the shop. also latitude will help.

if not water power is much less costly

[Alan Evans]

If you have an iPhone there is an application by the German company that made our solar power inverter unit. SMA .  They have this free  little app called Solarchecker which will calculate the output from PV panels in your location. You just lay the phone on the roof it calculates roof pitch and orientation/declination and the GPS tells it the average sun hours…so you tell it how many panels you can get on the roof it tells you your annual production. Instantly...and was exactly right for our system.

Can't remember if they have an Android version

Alan

[WL smith]

Any way you go solar, generated. Commercial power is always cheaper when you have the required amps delivered. Maybe start up expensive, but cheaper in the long run.

[ianinsa]

I think this is a 'horses for courses ' type of thing. Alan has a fantastic setup, and it works very well in his particular environment where you can sell back to the 'grid' ,if you can do the same I think it's a really worthwhile exercise.  If not then consider solar for light load application and a diesel genet/welder combo or stand alone for heavy loads . (opportunity for playing with woodgas/ biodiesel/blackdiesel etc. In future) Batteries are the budget killer in this game!  

[Alan Evans]

Yes, as Ian says our PV system is only viable because of the grid connection and the rate the government buy the power we generate. The installation outlay is repaid in around 7 years and the price per kW is guaranteed and inflation linked for 25 years.

The Solartchecker app. was just mentioned to give an easy way to assess and then discount, rather than go for, PV panels...

We do only have single phase 240volt here though. When I finally get the Shop built and big hammer installed I will be looking for a 75kVA (-ish) 3phase diesel generator to run the hammers and big welders. The power company quoted £25k 15 years ago to bring 3 phase here…that represents a lot of Diesel and generator maintenance for the years I have left to use it.

I did consider investing in single phase inverter welders and donkey engines to direct drive the hammers but just getting a big generator seems to be best bet at the moment.

Alan

[KRS]

Same here, the rates I sell are higher than what I pay for the power I use

Alan, have you seen this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0ICdvaU94o

 

 

Edited July 30, 2015 by KRS

[Alan Evans]

Same here, the rates I sell are higher than what I pay for the power I use

Alan, have you seen this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0ICdvaU94o

 

 

Not so much a donkey engine more the thoroughbred!

Alan

[DSW]

Same here, the rates I sell are higher than what I pay for the power I use

That's fairly typical. Solar just isn't financially viable at what it costs to generate electricity by other methods like nuclear or coal / natural gas generation. They have to make the power companies buy the power at what it costs to produce solar power, not what it costs them to generate electricity. The power companies in turn tack this higher "generation" cost that they are forced to pay for excess solar power on to the standard power they generate, causing basic rates to have to rise. Usually as soon as these forced subsidies run out, no one will touch energy generation systems like this.

 

Talking to the guy who runs the 4-H pig program, who put in a solar farm on his property, there are some issues with the system as well. I think he said they figure that 1/2 his panels will be inoperative within 10 years. That's the failure/life expectancy that they give for the units he got.  The only reason he did it is because they guaranteed he'd get a full return on his money within 5 years at the rate the power company is forced to buy his excess power, and the fact that he can "stock pile" power credits with the power company in the summer when his usage is low, and use those accumulated credits to pay his power bill in the fall when he's running all the freezers and processing equipment to handle all the deer he processes. That and the fact that 50% of the cost was covered by grants from the Feds/state, and the last 50% was all in federally guaranteed 0% interest loans.

[Alan Evans]

That's fairly typical. Solar just isn't financially viable at what it costs to generate electricity by other methods like nuclear or coal / natural gas generation. They have to make the power companies buy the power at what it costs to produce solar power, not what it costs them to generate electricity. The power companies in turn tack this higher "generation" cost that they are forced to pay for excess solar power on to the standard power they generate, causing basic rates to have to rise. Usually as soon as these forced subsidies run out, no one will touch energy generation systems like this.

 

Without going off the thread too much I am not sure you are 100% correct. Over here there is a Non Fossil Fuel scheme set up to subsidise the Nuclear industry which swallows 95% of it. Although to hear the power companies in the media they claim it is all spent on subsidising unsustainable domestic PV systems. Nobody was prepared to buy the Publicly owned Nuclear stations when they were privatised, without a guarantee that the taxpayer would be ultimately responsible for the long term storage of spent fuels / contaminated materials and decommissioning on top of the NFF subsidy. Terrific no-brainer to receive all the subsidy and profit and none of the financial risk or responsibility! Makes every kW generated by Nuclear very cheap.

I agree that the NFF / FITS (Feed In Tariff Scheme) subsidy is totally unsustainable. But costs peanuts. Before we had our meter renewed the old one ran backwards with our panels and it returned a negative number..which is why they changed it…we generated more than we used, but we were only credited with half of that. We are still using less than we generate and that must be true for many other PV installations which generate more than half they use which is all given for free to the power companies. 

For years the power industry here successfully lobbied for their monopoly against small generation schemes either for sun, wind, wave or water. If they had accepted a net metering system when they had the option it would have been much more sensible. As it is that is still not an option here. If the meters just ran both ways, and whoever owed, paid the difference at the same rate per kW it would appear a no brainer….When my big generator gets the hammer going there will be excess generation if it is run at its optimum efficiency, it would be really useful to trickle that back into the grid and use the grid as the battery.

Alan

 

[DSW]

I'll admit there are probably some differences between us here in the States and you all over there in Europe. I forget sometimes not everyone here is from the US like on other forums I'm usually on.

 

Nuke power made sense the way it was originally intended to be run over here. The "waste" was supposed to be recycled as very little of the rods were really used up when they get pulled. The exterior simply formed a shell of used up matter that insulated the majority of the remaining nuclear material and made it very inefficient.  The "spent" rods were supposed to be broken down, good material reconstituted to make new rods, usable isotopes saved and sold, and the remaining tiny portion ( what really is toxic), stored for long term "disposal". The break up of the Soviet Union and the dismantling of nuclear weapons stock piles on both sides has left us with a surplus of "fuel". That combined with the fears that if we move and recycle spent fuels there's a high risk of possible theft by terrorists, not to mention the fact I'll bet politics and commercial greed plays a large part, has made the system inefficient and poorly managed.

[Frosty]

I looked at a lot of ways to get or generate enough wattage to run a 7hp, 3 phase motor and couldn't find one that wouldn't break the bank. A 7 hp gas engine mounted to the machine I wanted to run would cost about 1/2% of the elec bill AFTER I got elec dropped and run to the shop. I figured my break even was a generation or so after I die.

If I want the engine noise away from me bump the HP a couple, put the engine outside and use hydraulic pump and motors to run the tools. Rig some quick disconnects from hard plumbed mains and you can run the whole shop off one moderately small gas engine.

No, not the lights.

Frosty the Lucky.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Frosty

[Dave Budd]

my workshop is 100% off grid and my power supply is split between solar and a generator.

The PV and batteries is enough to run small motors (1hp or less, but can handle 1.5hp briefly), lights, radio, etc. Then the higher load tools like belt grinders and welder are on the 7kva genny (single phase lister). Being in the UK I don't have to worry about getting too hot or too cold, but I know there are lots of non-powered options out there. I looked into a genset for welding and powering, but I need the power more than the welding facility and a genset just doesn't provide enough power for the price

While I can and do run my workshop this way by choosing (putting up with) tools that run on the low or poor quality power, being off grid is a royal pain in the bum!

[Yuppiejr]

To figure out if solar is viable you really need to work backwards and determine what your energy requirements are, and then size the batteries and solar charging array accordingly.  If you are starting from scratch you can check the plates/specs on all of the regular use items (lights, blower for your forge, ventilation fans, etc..)  and work from there.  If you only weld and run higher draw devices occasionally it will make more financial sense to use a hybrid solution with a solar solution for low draw devices and a generator for the high draw/occasional needs.  Solar + batteries are ill suited to this sort of application at small scale unless you are rich enough to use $20's when lighting your forge.   

Realistically for a smaller 100-120' sqft non commercial shop used a couple hours a day 4-5 times a week you can get by with a 200 watt solar kit (Renology, Amazon) tied to a pair of group 29 deep cycle battery (EverStart Max / Walmart) to run a few LED spotlights, a couple of ventilation fans and a 12v blower for a small forge (Attwood quiet blower).  Should land right around the $600-700 range, all-in with wiring and some switches.    If you're doing this on a budget, the Harbor Freight 80 amp / 115v inverter DC arc welder is $150 and should pair well with their Predator 4k generator for $300... plus $40 for a 25' 10 gauge extension cord and the materials to build an enclosure.   I'd napkin budget $1000-$1200 to cover your power needs for solar + generator solution on the low end and then compare the cost to hard wire electrical to the shop (including the lighting, ventilation and blower options) to decide if it makes sense.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2015 by Yuppiejr

[Charles R. Stevens]

Other than the power hammer 1/10 horspower (peaple power) tools out their, post drills, treadle grinders etc. using solor for the lighting and small tools isnt a bad deal at all (beats coal oil) but invest in AGM bateries and a charge controler. That way you have bateries acualy made for power suplies and you can wire the genset into the charge controler (you usualy dont use all the power produced by the gen set wile its running) big converters are spendy, but 3 phase exist (electric cars use 3 phase motors)