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gas forge


Ruddock

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ok, I think we have a failer to comunicate, are you making composit armor for tanks?! Most everyone I know makes patern welded bilits up about the size of An Iphone. Then draw them out to make sword blades. A heat treat furnace is another animal, and some have built veriavle valume forges, ones with a movable insulated wall, so they can block off part of the forge and shut off some burners. Are you planning on making large builits with a rolling mill?

Edited by Charles R. Stevens
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How would you expect to weld something 4' long without parts of it not dropping under welding temp as you worked?

Viking pattern welded blades were made in a fairly normal sized forge.  Japanese one too.  Do you have years of experience and want to do something out of the normal?  If so we can help; otherwise this sounds rather crazy.

(and the way you increase the length of a gas forge is to essentially build two or more and hook them together---more burners, longer tube.)

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The biggest mistake blacksmiths/bladesmiths make is building their forges to large.  You can not forge more that about 6" in a heat.  Check out my tutorials on my web-site at the Forge Supplies page.   The main thing that you will accomplish with a large forge is to burn lots of propane. As CRS said a heat treat oven is a different story.

Edited by WayneCoe
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I'm looking to make a viking type sword. The center is 3 alternate twisted Damascus rods which are forge welded together on either side is a damasus billet which is not twisted and then all forge welded together forming on piece. The reason I need a longer forge is I want to have all the rods heated up together for forge welding and can I make a longer than normal forge to accommodate this or what forge could I use

Edited by Ruddock
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You would make a billet up the size of a deck of cards or a bit larger and then draw it out to lenght.  So instead of welding up 30" peices of 1/8" stock untile you reach 1 1/2" in with (luck with that) you weld up a 1 1/2x 1 1/2x 6" bilet , this may start out as a core of 6 peices of 1/2" square (money bars were about 3/8") with two peices of 1 1/2x 1/4" O1 welded down each side to make the edges (dont loose track of them) then the bilet is drawn out to lenghth. As it typicaly takes 3 pases at welding heat to get a weld good and stuck trying to go the other way will lead to flustration. So a 1" burner in a 12" high by 9" deap forge will do you (9" is the size of one soft fire brick, and acording to an artical I read by Mark Asbery (spelling?) he tested burners and forge diamiters and found 1" burners were slightly more effecent and that a 12" pipe had enugh space to alow the fuel to burn before hiting an obstruction) as most folks cant work more than 6" in a heat (larger stock, sledges or powerhamers not withstanding) a forge that heats 9" is plenty. To heat treat the blade needs a long oven, but as welding heat isnt what your after their an oven that will reach critical and hold it stedy for an hour is the animal you need. So two "forges" a working forge, and a heat treat oven.

or you can go traditinal, 4" cube of iron (we will let you use A36 as a substitute) and 1 and 1 1/2# hand hammers, a 4 and 6 # sledge for your thrawls and a charcoal forge (gets plenty hot and heats just about 6") you'll need a trench forge for heat treat, but thats another deal...

so got 3 budies you can rope in to helping? The third pumps the bellows...

now one of the characters here that acualy make patern welded swords may come along and tell me I'm blowing smoke, but I doubt I'm off the mark enugh to embarase myself. 

Edited by Charles R. Stevens
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Well they were not done as a full length weld at one time; they were forge welded in steps down the length. All the people I know recreating them follow that process today as well.  You will not be able to make a good weld by hand that long in a single heat.  Heating the unwelded portions to welding heat degrades the materials with decarburization and scaling.  (hmm me and Charles agree and post at about the same time too...)

As you will want to try your technique out on smaller items I would suggest perhaps a forge with at most a 1' hot zone and make several sceaxes with the interrupted twist pattern. Remember it will take a lot of practice to get good, making your forge plans based on the end goal is rather like buying a formula 1 race car as your first car because you want to win formula one races someday.

Can you share with us your experience in bladesmithing and pattern welding?  We may be underestimating you. My first billet was welded up in 1984 under the direct teaching of a master bladesmith. I still remember his yell of "Don't look at it! Hit it!"

 

Edited by ThomasPowers
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TP certainly isn't afrad to tell me I'm pounding sand, lol. But seriusly, a good one burner forge will get most everything you want to do done, and it will do a lot of otherthings as well, then build yourself a long 4 burner for heat treat ( or send it out like any one sane! Yea I know I'm not the person to be preaching sanity, am I?!) if you are very fast at forging you will use the heat treat oven 1% of the time, and the forge 99% 

Edited by Charles R. Stevens
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The tools I have are a homemade electronic heat treat oven with a pid controller and keeps a good constant temperature and made a power hammer as well. I have an old coal forge but is desperate hard to maintain and so I want to go gas. For pattern welding, coal is better but I want to try gas but just have never tried or seen one only on internet. I know of blown and atmospheric forges. Atmospheric has no doors whereas blown do and so in atmospheric the sword can be put right through but people say making them are harder than a blown forgeforge as the burner work under a higher pressure. Blown forges are easier to set. I need to know which forge is the best for making long swords and damascus

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Coal forges are NOT better for doing pattern welding almost all the top notch pro's use propane.  

Both atmospheric and blown forges may or may not have doors; however atmospheric forges tend to be much more sensitive to back pressure and so a certain amount of opening must be maintained. I have/use both types.

Atmospheric are not harder to build because they work under a higher pressure, they are harder to build as they must be built and adjusted exactly to work  and work well.  Blown you can generally monkey around with the parameters and just adjust things on the fly. 

The best one?  Yes, No, Maybe based on a slew of things you haven't told us. (I need to know what's the best vehicle to buy---now I won't tell you if it has to be oceangoing or make it to the International Space Station, or haul 16 tonnes of gravel or carry 9 adults; but I want you to tell me what is the best one for me to get!)

Where are you at?  we might be able to find someone with experience close to you that could answer a whole lot of questions you haven't even gotten around to asking.

If you are in the USA you may want to think about attending the American Bladesmith Society bladesmithing school.  Training/experience is more important than equipment.  I have welded up a billet in a hole in the ground using scrounged charcoal and a carpenter's claw hammer and a chunk of railroad rail as an anvil.

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A long sword is made one heat at a time, and forged out only as much as can be handled in one heat. So again a 9" heat and a powerhammer are a good match. The advantage of atmasperic is that it is not dependant on electricity. Wile a blown forge is. Atmaspheric forges do use doors, but they need ports for exast. One would think that blom burners would as well. A reducing flame isn't as hot but it keeps the scale formation down, so forgwelding in a properly built gas forge isnt realy harder, but flux is detrimental to the lining, so expect ongoing maintinace

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so how many years experience of forge welding very long items do you have?

how many swords have you made before?

you must have a very large power hammer and be an expert if you can work 4 foot long in one heat

how do you control grain growth when heating the entire sword for any part of the work?

a gas forge you can get a 4 foot long object in will cost a fortune in gas to run it and flux destroys the lining very fast ( think OA torch on a block of styrofoam fast ).

you could try an induction heater to heat what you need

 

I am no expert but those posting above have many years experience between them ( I suspect that
T P taught iron age man to use a ground forge originally )

 

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