Jump to content
I Forge Iron

Questions on Handles


Recommended Posts

Ok, So I have completed 1 knife total that had a wooden handle, and a couple that were done in Paracord, Obviously working with paracord is much easier fit and finish wise then working with say Hickory and Brass.

Right now on my bench, I have a blade that I decided to try something with, and I am not exactly happy with the results, but I suspect I would have gotten better results had I asked here first before just diving into the work.

The knife(s) in question, are the top two in this image, Sorry I didn't get other pictures of them in their current state. The one that is already glued up, is the very top knife.

20150516_142727.thumb.jpg.64d010ed51501b



  What I had done, was take 2 separate pieces of Hickory, One light colored and one dark colored, and cut them to roughly half inch " stackable " pieces, with a 1/4th inch thick piece of brass at the ends of the handle. then drew a line down the center of each piece, and drilled holes into them, To this point, everything looked clean, the holes drilled were a shade thinner then the actual tang, But this is where the problem came up, In attempting to join the holes to make the hollow for the tang to fit in, I found that no matter how I positioned myself, or the piece, keeping the file ( using smaller needle files for this process ) straight was nearly impossible, softer sections of the Hickory would cause the file to remove more material from one side more then the other, and I ended up with oblong holes in nearly every piece. In the wood sections its not so much an issue, however the same issue occurred on the slots of the Brass as well, leaving me with large spaces between the edge of the brass and the tang of the knife. 

My first thought, was to take all the collected brass shavings from cutting the brass, and just dump it in the holes and heat it up, but then I realized that wouldn't work as I would end up ruining the temper of the blade from the heat and potentially lighting the hickory on fire.  So my next thought is to use solder, but then that will clash with the color of the brass. Given the situation I realize this knife will have to end up being a gift for someone instead of sold as I don't feel the finish of the handle is up to scratch at all.

Is there a better process to slotting handle material then drilling holes and then using a file to join the holes, I don't have access to a Mill, I do have a drill press, but its a cheap harbor freight one so attempting to use it as a mill would likely destroy it in short order on anything harder then Balsa wood. Given the amount of  1/2 inch O1 rod stock I have, this particular style of knife is something I will be making a good few of in the future, I am sure as I progress my skills are going to improve, but any hints on keeping the slotting nice and true would be greatly appreciated.  One thought I did have was to cut the pieces to their " to be glued " thickness, then cut them in half, so I can hollow out an area on each piece for the tang, and then glue them back together before gluing them on the knife, Which would work fine for the wooden portions of the blade, but I am not so sure how well that process would work for the brass or other metal used for the ends of each one, I would suspect there would be a line down the piece regardless of how high a grit I use to finish the outside surface of the brass which I am trying to avoid.

I will post pics of them in their current state later today after work.



 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Try a jewlers saw and/or much smaller holes on the brass, anso a small well made "motising shisel"to help shave of the exese brass. One can also grind down a peice of hacksaw blade and mount it ina handle (mount it so it cuts on the pull stroke) lastly hot punch the slot in the brass, drift and clean up.

 

Spliting the handle is pretty standard, but their is a tool, a thick saw blade on a handle, cut down a Job saw blade and mount on a handle, again so it cuts on the pull stroke. 

I have seen a rig built to suport the chuck of a press to do milling opperation, used 3 berings riding against the chuck, but frankly by the time you built it yiu could save money and by a small bench lathe/mill combo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will have to look into what I would need to do to make a chisel for this, that isn't a half bad idea, simply lack the tooling to do so at the moment, And I am sure it takes a bit of practice to get done well.

And the idea of trimming a hacksaw blade down, now that is pure genius... I never would have thought of that, granted that I have a surplus of hacksaw blades, I will try that method first, to see how things work with that plan, otherwise I will also start looking into sourcing a jewelers saw, again another potential tool I didn't even think of using as I don't have one.  I am a bit nervous trying to hot split these pieces, they are essentially 1 inch x 1 inch x 1/4 inch thick, so holding it to do the hot punch would be a challenge in itself.

Thanks both of you, I am going to give all Ideas a shot this weekend.

Crantius, I have done the epoxy trick with sawdust, had to on my first knife to fill a slight separation between two pieces, but I didn't think to try it using brass dust, So thank you for that suggestion as well, I will give that a shot as well and see how things turn out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have O1, and a way to heat treat, so your good, on can also re grind a couple of wood chesels ( 1/4" and 1/2") the problem is you need several diferent tools to sneek up on it. So, chisels, cut down hacksaw, jewlers saw, &jewlers files. 

As to hot punch, tongs, then cut out the prole dont cut out the profile then punch and drift. Tho one can cut a strip, slit and drift, this being a forging operation, but being more conserving if stock. Check with yiur suplier, some brass is not forgible, others are hazardes (you sould be ok with the zink but some have other metals like lead) 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wood handles are generally bedded in epoxy to prevent moisture from creeping in and rusting the tang.  So an exact fit of the wood is generally not done. Guards and pommels should be as exact as possible and that takes PRACTICE.  Final shaping/polishing of a handle is often done after it is mounted in place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

after looking at it again, I think my " Newb Paranoia " was showing, the holes are not perfect by any means, but they are a lot less oversized then I had thought at least where the brass parts are concerned. 

As for the wood, I am finding out very much the truth of your words Thomas, the epoxy totally filled the hollow between the tang and the wood, which is making removal an interesting task in futility with the intent of keeping all the pieces. The one I glued up yesterday, is solid as a rock, and in the right place, the one I glued today.... Not so much, the handle slid " down " the tang a good 1/4 inch, leaving about that much of the tang exposed under the ricasso, As i had the blade wrapped and in the vice, I didnt see this til AFTER the epoxy had cured. 

So a new question, I think I am on the right path, but best to see what you all have to say about this, supposedly epoxy can be ' more easily removed ' if cured, by heating the pieces to around 200-250 deg, that should make it at least soft enough to pry the pieces off to be cleaned, Considering I drew temper on these knives at around 350 - 400 deg, heating the piece for a short period at 250 shouldnt harm the heat treatment right? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Basically the handle is a stack.. 

The intent, is to glue it all up, then take the belt sander to the brass pieces till they are close to the wood in general shape, then hand sand the whole handle down to a fairly uniform puukko handle shape, So really the brass is more the handle then a guard, however as you can see in the second picture, one of the sides in the brass has a gap, the other side is much closer to the tang. 

I had to re epoxy the end piece today, I would assume the heat from sanding down the brass on the belt sander warmed the epoxy up to its " loosening " point, so something I will need to consider tomorrow when I finish the grinding on it. 

I am actually making this as a " Can I do it " proof of concept for a KITH Puukko I want to try and make, This last weekend I pulled off a major ( in my opinion ) accomplishment with my skills, I was able to forge weld successfully 4 times in a row, I was making some twisted winebottle holders for the wino's errrr... I mean women in my family for mothers day and was using 3/16th round A36 and realized it was not strong enough to hold the weight of a full wine bottle ( Girlfriend being Italian, I have plenty to use for.... testing.... yeah... )  so I just ground off the mill scale from the ends of 2 pieces, wired them together, heat them and beat them and was able to get all 4 done first try. One broke while twisting, but the other three held solid even after trying to break them apart. 

So the Puukko I make for the KITH, is going to have at minimum pattern welded caps on it, If I can pull off a full puukko blade, I will feel very happy with my skills.  plan to keep the attempts small, prolly 2 inch long by inch wide and 1/4 inch thick pieces, planning on doing 1084 and 15N20. 

 

 

55601e3581951_20150523_0025531.thumb.jpg55601ebaca2e8_20150523_0026101.thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you hopeing to heat the assembled handle and push it back inplace? not an expert on epoxy but i doubt that will work.  In the futer a long "C" clamp with a slit cut threw the imobile jaw, and another clamp (padded jaw can be used to keep the asembly in place. Silver soder is prety standerd on bolsters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I had two handled like this, the one in the picture is the one that everything stayed in place on, The other one the top brass piece and all other pieces slid down. 

I ended up tossing it in my shop toaster oven, let it sit for about 20 minutes at 200 deg, and then wrapped the blade and clamped it in the vice and then pulled all the pieces off one by one, wasnt too bad at all, 

Now just clean them up, and then reglue them, 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To get a good fit will take patience, and practice. No other way around that. 

Now to save your piece you could peen around the hole some to move the metal towards the blade, then resand it flat. Or, if you have enough width, just swage the whole piece thinner which will close the hole up. Then refile to fit, or press it over the tang.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, Im noticing the patience part, I have another one ( first post, Second knife from the top ) that I am also working on at the moment, its the one I had to dismantle as the handle slid down the tang when gluing, the holes on that one are MUCH tighter then the holes on this one at least as far as the brass work goes. 

I think my biggest issue is sizes, I didnt measure the thickness of the tang, so when I drilled out the pieces, I just grabbed a couple drill bits, compared them to the width of the blade, found one that felt close and drilled, but afterwards I realized the tang was slightly thicker mid way down it, so to get the brass on, I had to make the holes slightly larger which created the gap, 

Lucky for me, the other one the tang tapers consistently to the end,  going to reglue that one tonight and then hopefully finish it up tomorrow. I want to see how it turns out, It has 2 pieces of brass in it, and the wood is separated by a thin section of copper layers. 

I love this hobby....

Edit: THIN not THING....

Edited by Malice9610
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Back about 30 years ago I used to take some sq cut masonry nails and ground rounded ends on them to use to "push" guard metal towards the tang and then also peened the face of the guard to hide the evidence/make it more showy. (actually if you do it carefully and all around the tang then it can look like an intentional ornamental inset)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thomas, So you would use the masonry nails to " shim up " the guard to the tang,  Am I understanding that correctly, I think on the next one I finish up in this manner I am going to give the " hit it to make it tight " idea a try, but If i end up with massive holes on each side perhaps shimming it in that manner with some masonry nails would make an interesting design once ground down to the level of the guard. 

Thanks for yet another great idea... 

Here is how that one looks now, handle is finally shaped in a way I like. still not a true Puukko style handle, but for what I envision this knife to be I really like the handle shape and it feels nice and light in the hand. 

When I first ground the scale off this blade after forging, i looked at it and said to myself " This is like grandpa's old fishing knife " and that use has pretty much stuck in my head ever since. 

20150526_054938.thumb.jpg.3d0e012de3f777

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe Thomas was saying he used the nails as a punch the drive(spread) the guard material in toward the blade and close the gaps. That he would do it all the way around so it wasn't obviously a fix, but looked like decorative element. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

I know that this is a bit late in arriving, but I would like to make a few suggestions for getting that guard to fit nice and tight.

1st-define the shoulders that the guard sets up against and make them perfectly flat and inline. The next thing is to establish an area I call "the hump", which is the part of the tang that goes through the guard and spacer package. The Hump also gets a pair of shoulders that are perfectly flat and inline. The easiest way to do this is with a carbide faced filing jig or other tool (the first one I had I made from two pieces of hardened O-1) like the one sold at riverside machine works (Uncle Al to knife makers).

The first photo is the jig on a blade getting ready to set the guard shoulders. This is held against a disk or belt grinder until the carbide bottoms out. The process is repeated for the hump area. The second photo shows the blade with both areas ready to set a guard.  shoudlers.thumb.JPG.a458dd1c9f23e5f8dbb6WIP_Knife_002_-_Copy.thumb.JPG.f79d68eda

The third photo shows the guard from the handle side. Notice the over cut out on the back side and the under sized front slot.The front of the guard is slotted slightly narrower than the thickness of the hump. Because I will press fit the guard and the hump will cut through the front, leaving a tight fit around the hump.WIP_Knife_004_-_Copy.thumb.JPG.d3c8cc41d

The next photo shows the blade in a vice point down, the guard set over the tang against the hump, a sacrificial guard over the real guard, and the guard setting tool I made. WIP_Knife_005_-_Copy.thumb.JPG.d6359da0b

The setting tool goes over the tang and you take a big hammer (I use a 1-1/2 lb ball peen) and whack it down until the guard is set over the hump.

 

The last photo shows the final fit. The guard can be removed, ground to shape and hand sanded to finish off the knife, and replaced before glue-up.

WIP_Knife_007_-_Copy.thumb.JPG.2d860fdae

 

 

 

Edited by cliffrat
One too many pics
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...