Today was a good day

[Michael Cochran]

First off let me say when I got up I didn't feel like gettin out of bed much less goin to work but I went anyway. As a result of gettin out of bed and goin to work I found a 1939 Mercury head dime and was given a load of tile worth a couple hundred $. Then my lovely wife told me I could pay off early the gas forge I've been making payments on. When I go to pick up my new forge the woman still had some of the tools her late husband used while shoeing horses. I looked through and picked up 3 tongs and and hot cut hardie and what looks like a broken cast iron stake anvil. I was sworn to secrecy of the price I paid for it all so I'll say it was under $500 and leave it there. I have included pictures and would like any input anyone might have about any of these new wonderful tools.

 

The tongs are 20 1/2 inches long and looks to comfortably hold up to 2 inches, 18 long holding 1, and 12 long holding 1/2. The hot cut is about 3 inches tall and 1 1/2 inches square with a 3/4 inch shank. The anvil ins about 10 inches tall with a 4 inch horn, it is about 4 square inches on the upright. 

 

The forge is a nctool atmospheric #1051 and looks to have a 12x6x21/2 fire chamber. The regulator that came with it is set at 10psi. I can't wait to fire it up

Edited May 9, 2015 by M Cochran

[Frosty]

And won't that teach you to stay in bed eh?

What size is the shank on the pointy pin thing? It looks more like an alignment pin to guide an attachment onto an arm or such. On the order of changing buckets on an excavator. There are pins with tapered ends you insert the hinged part of the bucket into, tip it up and engage the locking pins. If a person had to try align the locking pins by eye it'd be a serious PITA. However there are alignment pins you can rock the bucket up on and the locking pins line up for you.

I'm thinking the little stump or stake anvil looking piece works on that order. Not that it's off an excavator, loader, etc. just it has a function of that kind. I'm thinking it'll make a FINE mandrel or bic iron. I wouldn't kick it out of my truck bed for eating crackers.

Let us know how that forge works, I hear good about them.

Frosty

[Michael Cochran]

Well I went and fired it up for a second just for you Frosty. I took a couple pictures showing the flame and I'd like your input on it. One picture is in darkness and one with a camera flash. I'll see if I can't find time tomorrow to see how long it takes to get up to temp and take a video of it running. As far as the other thing I got a couple pictures of it too.

 

[Frosty]

It looks to be running pretty rich. How's it sound? Did you make sure the tubes are clean? It doesn't take much to disrupt the flow and mess up the induction.

One of the guys in our club has a NC forge very much like yours and he uses it all the time. I keep wanting to make him new burners but he likes it so . . .

I think a 2" sq. shank takes that out of the typical blacksmiths tool box. I think it'll make a dandy addition to yours though, it'll be GREAT for making small rings and such. Could make a terrific camp fire anvil too.

Frosty

[Michael Cochran]

I was so sure it was an anvil lol. I've never seen a stake/stump anvil in person so I guess I just assumed when I saw it. I went out to the shop and used my compressor to blow out the blowers only from the back side. I stuck my blower nozzle into the burner tubes and blew out a little dust and it made a little difference.

Here is a link to a short video showin it runnin. http://youtu.be/Nhl0KkdEMZE

The piece of steel there is 1/4x3/4 bar i pointed for a project I haven't finished and it took about 3 minutes to get to this heat. I also show the inside of the forge right after I cut it off. Looks like heat is really uneven and I have no idea what to do from here. The whole reason I wanted the forge was to heat treat smaller items more evenly and reliably.

 

Edited May 9, 2015 by M Cochran

[Wroughton]

Hi,

i would say your burning too rich still. Less loose flame (I like the term "dragons breath"). As soon as you pull the gas supply back and more air enters the DB will recede. Then u should have a neutral flame. You will have to adjust as the firebox heats up.

 

[Frosty]

That's running WAY too rich. There is no visible primary or secondary flame IN the forge, it's all tertiary or dragon's breath outside the forge. The one indication it'd drawing any air through the burners is the dragon's breath isn't yellow and you're getting SOME heat in the bar.

Listen to the video, it's a really soft breathy sound, it should be making an uncomfortably loud roar. Eve a coal forge makes more sound than that.

Why don't you make new burners? Well, alright can you pull the gas pipe used for the jets? The holes are either way too large or something has blocked them enough to stop a smooth jet of propane from firing down the burner tube. Spiders nest in tiny little holes with large voids behind them you know. Maybe pull the gas line and blow in the jet holes with compressed air.

The burner jet on the right may be way out of alignment but neither is performing well at all. As it stands it's a CO generator not a forge. The supply pipe/jets may have just gotten bumped out of alignment. Jim's NC isn't as hot a forge as mine but it performs and welds just fine but it's tuned.

Maybe loosen the hold down screws on the supply pipe enough it can move, light the fire and try tapping it back and forth GENTLY!!! Just be ready for a fire ball outside your forge if you bump it too far or the wrong direction. Try this OUTDOORS, wear PPE and do it at your own risk. The jets may only be out a few thousandths of an inch, you do NOT want to move it much regardless. The difference between properly centered and non-functional is around 1/8". What's happening in yours right now is pretty non-functional.

We'll get it cooking don't worry.

Thanks for the video, it says more than stills and I can hear it.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Michael Cochran]

I just got home from runnin a couple errands so I'm headed out to the shop to fiddle gently. I have very little gas forge experience except. I built one using a paint can and a mapp torch but it's not what I wanted and far from ideal so I'm on a new learning curve. Thankfully I don't have to have this running right away. As I stated earlier I wanted it for heat treat and im not ready for that step on any projects right now so I still have time.

Ill post somethin again in a little bit after I have a chance to see what I can and cannot do. I might even have some more pictures or video then.

thanks for the help so far.

btw, I bought the forge because I was having so much trouble trying to build burners. I never can seem to find the parts listed. Maybe Ive been lookin at the wrong ones.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2015 by M Cochran

[Frosty]

Which parts can't you find? No plumbing or welding stores in Hayden? Can there be a city in the lower 48 more remote than Meadow Lakes AK?

Frosty The Lucky.

[LastRonin]

On 5/9/2015 at 2:51 PM, M Cochran said:

I bought the forge because I was having so much trouble trying to build burners. I never can seem to find the parts listed. Maybe Ive been lookin at the wrong ones.

Have you looked at the Frosty T-burner? If you can't find the parts for it, you must be living waaaaaaay out in the boonies.  

I built a 3/4" one with all scavenged scrap, except the .30 mig tip. And it's xxxxxxxx awesome! Shoot... I bet someone would be willing to ship them to you using USPS flat-rate box. Probably just at cost.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Lets run down some posible isues, beginer mistakes. Pleas dont take offence. You are using a regulator that goes up to atleast 20psi on a 20# pluss propane bottle? Not a house natural gas or a barbeque regulator? (Real low presure will give you a rich fire as you arn't moving gas fast enugh for to draw air. No mud dobers nests In the burner tubes, no plumbers tape in the burner jets? Jets are centerd in the air inlets? You need 5-15 psi to run that beast. They are good little forges, reliable ant take bouncing around in the back of a shoeing rig well. 

As to parts, all I have to do is go to Lindsay and one of 3 oil feild suply will hook me up (the local luberyard sucks) any reasnably large city will have a plumbing suply house, such as loch suplly that can hook you up, lowes not somuch. Infact i can sorce crosse insted of t's 

[Michael Cochran]

Ronin, the stores near me don't stock much of anything the don't sell regularly. Mig tips and black pipe couplings do different kinds are pretty much non existent but I haven't stopped looking.

Charles, you're not offending me right now lol I am probably making a beginners mistake. 

I'll list here what I know and we can go from there

• forge came with a half full 20# propane tank
• has a 3-20psi regulator right off the bottle then a six foot rubber hose to the burner assembly
• burner inlets are welded to square tubing used to hold the tips in alignment with the tubes
• burner assembly is held on by two nuts to the top of the forge body

I'm unsure about the following and will be lookin into it a little more

• is the regulator any good (seems like it cause flame changes some when I adjust it)
• are the burner tubes and/or jets blocked in any way
• is there a reason for the one burner to act differently than the other (see video i link to below)

The woman told me it's been a while since the forge was used but didn't say just how long it's been. Apparently around here people don't do hot shoeing very often anymore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTnGPzY8lB0 In this video I blocked the jst one at a time using my finger so I could see the difference in the flames from the different burners. It looks as though the one is partially blocked. I'm guessing im gonna have to bust out my pipe wrench and carefully pull the burners apart for a thorough cleaning.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Dang, thats an anchent unit. Look up farrier suplies in the yellow pages or beter yet look up your local blacksmiths supply.

Welding supply houses have mig tips, as dose some farm and ranch and Napa and lumber/building supply houses.

look up the local plumber and welder, sometimes when one includes drive time and fuel their mark up is par reasnable. Ask your local propain supplier if they can help you, I know if you live in the boonies their has to be some one delivering Propane.

When you crank up the presure the flames should get lowder and the bigger. I assume the gauge works on the regulator? Cant tell a hog from a dog with out a gauge...

if I was starting out on your rig, cleaning would be the first line, spiders and such get in open gas lines and plug things up, I assume the regulator was not hooked up to the  propane can?

[Michael Cochran]

Im goin to answer your questions even though they're not necessary anymore (I think I fixed it). Everything was hooked up just like he left it the last time he used it. The gauge does change when I turn the known on the regulator.

good news is, as I just said, I think I fixed it. I'll be honest, I don't like taking thinks apart I know little to nothing about but I did slide the burner assembly off the top and decided to look down the tube. Yes I made sure the gas was off before I did, I might be stupid but I'm not an idiot. I'm sure anyone can guess what I saw but I'll say it anyway, I found a good size dirt daubers nest right in the elbow on both burners. I took pictures if anyone wants to see. After I broke them up and scraped all of the nest out I could i blew it out with my compressor, then scraped and blew again twice more just to be sure. As a result there's some definite improvement in the flames. The one side is still a little weaker but I guess that's cause it's at the other end of the supply.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0rWHGIOf4U

I do have bad news though. I wanted to double check all the fittings after all fiddlin cause I thought I smelled propane and when I splashed water on the regulator it's bubbling next to one of the screws on the body of it. I guess I'm gonna have to go buy a new one. 

Thanks again for everyone's help. Sadly I'd never thought to look for obstructions in the tubes.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Check with your propane distributer, he should cary the regulator or be able to rebuild it. Glad to hear you found the primary problem

[Frosty]

My bad, I should've been more specific when I said CLEAN. Of course now you're a full member of the blacksmiths club you had mud dauber nests in your forge. I have ferral cats keeping the rodentia under control in  my shop.

Congratulations on a working forge! Yeah a new regulator is probably in order, if it's leaking around a screw on the regulator's case the diaphram is probably shot. Better safe than sorry, just change it out it's cheap insurance. However if it's leaking around the tank connection do NOT tighten it more than snug! Over tightening tank fittings has ruined more fittings and tank seats than old age. Same for closing the tank valve, just snug is all it needs, over tightening WILL cause them to leak after a while. If it's leaking around the tank fitting take a look at the male fitting and see if the O-ring is in good condition. Roll it off and give it a stretch if it isn't lively rebounding replace it, they get old and stiff just like we do.

Before you hit the store, double check the hose for checking (cracks in the rubber outer casing) they don't last forever. Does it have a gauge? While not a must they make adjusting for target temperatures much easier. for general bending I run in the 5-6psig range, forging in the 10-12psig range and weld in the 15-20psig range.

Whatever you do do NOT judge your forge by other people's gauge readings, just keep track of what yours does on given jobs and conditions. Humidity has more effect than ambient temp.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Keep playing with burners, a one burner forge will do you for most things. Not to mention burning les than half the fuel of your curent (newly aquired) rig. I use a ProForge on the truck, heats 4 shoes fast, adjusted so it dosn't burn them up wile I'm working on the others, I can ajust, modify and repair tools in the feild as well as turn out a hoof pick or a wall hook fast enugh. But palying around at home I have pair of charcoal forges that I feed wood scraps, keeps my play time cheap. Tho I can run my forge all day on a 20# can and a bucket of water (keeps the bottle from frezing up) if you shut down between heats she sould relight and save you more fuel. Invest in a 100# can

Home work assighnment, can you tell me  who desighned the "T" burner?!

[Michael Cochran]

I almost asked about rebuilding the regulator but I didn't wanna look like a dummy lol. Just to clarify the leak is at one of the several screws going around the outside of the body.

frosty, it's not your fault I didn't read what you said right. I was in too big of a hurry to get it going and didn't really read it as thoroughly as I should. There is a gauge on the regulator and from my quick look over the hose it looks to be in good shape. I'm building a new shop right now and will actually put in a hard line from the tank to next to the forge and then I'll have a short piece of flex on the end. I'm not a fan of the idea of a flexible rubber gas line knowing how often I drop hot or pointy things.

Edited May 9, 2015 by M Cochran

[Charles R. Stevens]

As Jerry said, its probbably the diapham. I would leave that to a pro this time. If you had another one you might try sorcing the parts (a rebuilder can get them much cheaper) and doing it your self. (Hint, tight is good enugh with all things gas)

[Michael Cochran]

FrosTy is the one Resposible for the t burner iirc. I had to go back and reread a few posts cause I didn't know who Jerry is lol.

i did do a search for my regulator (fisher type 67) and have yet to find it I guess it's old too and has become obsolete. I'll take it to the local gas company next time I head to town while their open as well as call a couple people I know who work all sorts of gas related things to see if I can just have this one fixed. I don't have the money to spend on a new one since my hobby fund is currently dry. I did see one I can get in town for $20 but it doesn't have a gauge and only one output. I could put a T on the out and put my gauge on one leg and the supply line on the other and that would work wouldnt it?

Im going to go look at burners again just out of curiosity. I'll leave the ones on there for now but might upgrade later.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Bingo, Jerry Frost, our very own Frosty.

the gaug will work just fine on the down stream side, between the regulator and the burners, if the one your looking at only has two ports one is the inlet, and that side will read tank presur, it may seem obvius but a barbeque regulator will not work but some of the turky fryer regulaters will. 

[Michael Cochran]

Believe it or not that was the first burner I was going to build but didn't have a way to drill the hole in the T. But now I do so I might try again. 

[Frosty]

Aw you're making me blush Charles. A new 0-30psi regulator is usually in the $30.00 range and for my money cheaper than $20.00 for a rebuild. Do the gas guys even rebuild them anymore?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Michael Cochran]

I can get a mr heater 0-20 psi at the local tractor supply for $22 after tax and get a cheap 1/4 T for a couple $ more so that I can use my old gauge. Do you think that's a better bet than a rebuild? 

Here a really stupid question, other than the spring is there anythin useful in an old regulator?

[Frosty]

I'm thinking 20psi max might be on the low side. I think we should poll guys in the forum who have NC forges and see what they say. I'll ask the guy I know with one and see what he says.

Frosty The Lucky.