Call A Hammer A Hammer

[SReynolds]

Why do more and more folks refer to a hammer as a "die"?

Why do we have to change things?

 

I hear folks say "die" in describing how they strike/forge an object/work piece and I don't catch on to what is being said at the onset. I'm looking for another tool............a die. I'm attempting to decipher what is said/portrayed cuz folks don't call a hammer a die. It is a hammer.

confusing.

 

[Satchel & Trunk]

I've only heard them referred to as dies when they are the impact parts of a treadle or power hammer.  Since those are pieces of the larger machine and (generally) don't really look anything like a hand hammer, I can see why they'd be called something different.  But yeah, a hammer is a hammer is a hammer...

[ThomasPowers]

I've seen "dies" used for "swages" at times.

[Maillemaker]

Technically, what most blacksmiths do is "open die forging", where two relatively flat faces shape the material.  Closed dies have shapes cut or pressed into them, and matching top and bottom pieces.  Modern drop forging is a closed-die operation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YobXFODkp50

[SReynolds]

Right..I understand that in some strange technical manner; it is a die. But...if you post up a video about "how to" and you use the term die to shape something, it is confusing cuz the interested party is waiting for the use of the die and when that will come into play..... "strike here with the flat die and then position on the far edge of anvil and strike with round die"..........

 

You begin to wonder where the die is and then after a few run throughs of watching, assume the die is perhaps the hammer.

[Kal]

Maybe it's because whoever posted the video is more caught up in himself than he is about trying to pass along information.  What do I use to pound nails a hammer or a die?

 

[Crazy Ivan]

I would say its got something to do with the forging process. A hammer is to hit something (like a nail) with the intention of driving it in or breaking something apart, not shaping it. A die has the specific purpose of shaping an object. While I still call my hammer a hammer, the faces are in function, dies. Weather they be flat, round, fullers, balls etc the profile makes the faces function as a die. I don't personally care for the terminology much but I get where its coming from. On the flip side I have never heard anybody call punches and bolster plate "top and bottom punch dies" which is exactly what they are. Just like turret presses and ironworkers use except the steel is hot instead of cold. My 2c.

[Charles R. Stevens]

I first heard the hammers and anvils referd to as dies by Brian Brazeal, he readaly admits to not being the beast at explaining things so other folks can understand. He was trying to convey the point of how a hammer and anvil shape steel,  he compared them, and the  ering shapes that can be brought against the steel as dies in an atempt to get his point across. Some folks have made it a fad, i think to make them selves feel smart. My thought is a really smart smith strugling to get an idea out if his head, threw his mouth, into some one elses ears (or eyes in the case of what he posted here) and into there minds, came up with a very workiable way of doing it. 

A smithing hammer and an anvil are dies used to shape steel, tho some times the anvil is a die holder, and the hammer is the driving force behind a die. 

Makes sence to me, and got me thinking outside the box, but it seamed to cofuse others 

[SReynolds]

That was it,,,,, exactly. I was watching his one of Brian's how to video's and my wife was looking at this.....and she tilted her head after a bit and said that he sounds like he really doesn't know what he is talking about. I politely informed her he is a professional from what I know ...but sometimes he can't quite "get it out" in terms of what he attempting to convey.

Then there are the Brian copy videos. Exactly the same thing and they too use the term die in place of hammer.

[Frosty]

I first heard a hammer called a die by Brian when he held clinics for our club. A die is a specific shape intended to perform a specific duty. For instance a cross pein does fullering work, forces the metal to move in a specific manner. This is by definition a die. Top tools are dies, sure there are all kinds with their own names but they're dies. For example you wouldn't put a flat bed semi in a different category than a cargo box or reefer would you? Semi trailers, all.

Using different parts of a hammer to do different specific work is using them as a die. How many guys TEACH students to cant their hammers to the side and use the edge as a fuller?

Yeah, it can be confusing so try and remember Brian's context. You are USING a specific PART of the hammer as a die. It's not a noun, it's an adverb. It's a description of a use and effect. The Brian's not the best public speaker and he had me wondering what the heck he was talking about till the light bulb went off and I got it.

Seriously, calling a hammer a die unless it's a texturing die or you're minting coins, etc. is in reference in how it's used. Let's just explain that to folk, eventually it'll become part of our lexicon and only the students will be confused. Being confused and figuring stuff out is what being a student is all about. It's what this site is here for, spreading the confusion and hoping someone on Earth can explain it to us.

Frosty The Lucky.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Frosty

[beammeupscotty]

Brian Brazel's opinions notwithstanding, I used to make and maintain dies and a hammer is not a die, it is a hammer.  If you are using the edge of a hammer as fuller it might technically make it a fuller but it doesn't make it a die. If this is not the case, why do we even have the terms ,"top fuller" or ,"bottom swage"?   

[arftist]

Remember folks the terms originated as "tool and die". The die is the bottom part, the "tool" is either a hammer or a punch or a fuller or a swage or whatever. Even if one were using a top tool and it were struck by a hammer, the hammer is still a hammer, the top tool is still a tool or at best (most) part of a die set. Brian or anyone else's confusion nonewithstanding. 

Also I take issuee with the concept that a hammer is not to shape metal. Where is that written? Blacksmith's hammers are to shape metal. Roman claw hammers are to drive and pull nails. 

[EricJergensen]

I prefer the term "face": Use the flat face. Use the round face. Tilt your hammer to use the edge of the flat face. etc.

Still. Once you get Brian's terminology, you find his explanation pretty helpful. Does tend to start conversations / fights about terminology tho...

[Rashelle]

I volunteer at a national park historic site, where I am very frequently asked what's all these shapes and surfaces and the differences between them for, in reference to different hammers, anvils, and swage blocks. So I tell them to imagine each different part as a different die. (People are constanly calling swages molds, grrrrrr, heehee.) Each different die or surface area will perform a different function. I then go on to explain that hit the hammer flat everything goes splat in all different directions, tilt the hammer this way or that and it goes this way or that. Use the horn or step, or shapes in the swages and the metal moves towards the path of least resistance away.

So I being a prior student of Brians it makes sense to me and makes sense to me in a way I can in person (imagine me going through the motions with the hammer and different surfaces as I explain to the public) explain to others. Without having to explain what a fuller is or even other more technical terms to people who don't know blacksmithing. 

Makes sense to me.

[Frosty]

Doesn't matter what you learned in a trade school, union apprenticeship, from your Father. this is a living trade as is it's language. The best we can hope to do is establish a current tradition of similar terms, a lexicon if you will. I grew up in my Father's shop and there were no less than 3 punch presses when it was in the garage. The punch presses and the forming presses, it just depended on the tooling. I still have his journeyman's card, dated 1933 and I learned the difference between the top and bottom dies before I was 8.The terms he learned during his apprenticeship.

Here's a blacksmithing site.

"Upper Die", "Lower Die."

Ref. "The Little Giant Powerhammer" by  R.R. Kern

And no, I'm not going to go look up any more references. Nor am I going to try explaining the difference between a noun and an adverb.

Frosty The Lucky.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Frosty

[SJS]

I like Brian, and he is flat out one of the best blacksmiths at hand forging I have ever seen.  I also know from talking to him over the years that he is obsessed with forging, and he THINKS about it. I think he sees traditions as a useful starting place, but they should be tested to see if they are really valid, that it really is a superior system.  He also is a bit of a divergent thinker, he questions a lot that people take for granted as a given.  He also likes coming up with interesting ideas to help explain and demonstrate concepts. The squeezing between the "dies" concept, and the Brazeal brothers anvil concepts are useful ideas.  The Tools to make tools curriculum is also pretty cool.  I also like many of Uri Hofi's techniques and ideas.  I know there are lots of people who idolize both men, and others who hate one or both of them.  I try not to take other people's success personally;-) Take the useful bits, don't get hung up on the minor issues or the cult of personality.  I try to incorporate good ideas where ever I find them. Its pretty cool when they are mine, but I am not offended if I learn something from someone I don't like...  I am just thankful to have learned something.  The better you get the harder it gets to get better, and finding nuggets of truth to add to your stash gets harder.  There are lots of ways to say things, lots of metaphors people can use, some work really well for one person, and not at all for another, to each his own. You also have to be careful to not develop your own secret language, a unique concept can't just be used without introducing it properly.  Brian's following on YouTube understand the concept because it was introduced in the why I use a rounding hammer video...  I don't just use a rounding hammer like Brian does.  I know my weaknesses and I have to be very conscious about how hard I hold onto the hammer when I set the face to a certain angle to get an effect.  For me, it is much easier and safer to pick up a dedicated tool, a cross peen, or a straight peen to move the metal a particular way.  Rather than strike with the edges of a rounding hammer like Brian does.  I think it is really cool how (particularly) Brian and his students can move the steel that way, wish I had someone to teach me those tricks 30 years ago, but I made things up as I went along and found things that worked for me, and how my mind works.  If I were learning blacksmithing now I would try diligently to learn all I could from Brian and Uri, they have some very efficient techniques that would be a great starting place.  Since I have trained myself over the years I have only been able to incorporate some of their techniques in how I forge.  I am far from a slavish devotee to either man, but I recognize good technique when I see it, and what Brian and Hofi do though different  both move steel amazingly efficiently.  The die concept has an odd flavor initially but if your are patient and see the value in it, you might find its an acquired taste...  :-)  Coming from a power hammer background the dies concept is easier for me maybe, fullering dies, etc...

[Rashelle]

I thought I should add a little more. It all comes down to communication. Brian uses his terminology deliberately to be as precise as possible. (It seems to me, I can not speak for another.) Everyone is a product of their past, and their perception of such. We each seeing/experiencing an "event" will come away with a somewhat different perception of it. When we each try to describe it it will be communicated in different ways. Yes a hammer is a hammer. But in trying to communicate the concept of "hammer" to someone with no prior understanding of one (yes there are a lot of those nowadays) you end up trying to communicate a concept to another with your perceptions value on wording/understanding.

[Francis Trez Cole]

SJS wait until you see Peter Ross hammer metal.

 

Yes it was Brian that coined the term of the hammer and anvil as a die. I guess you need to call it something. you can make many bottom dies for you anvil it can be as simple as a piece of round stock welded to a piece of metal that can fit in your hardie hole. The key is to use something be it a bottom tool or a top tool or the edge of the anvil to speed up the movement of metal. Fewer heats more work completed is the goal to do the most amount of work with the fewest heats. Time and fuel is money.

I tell my students Hit it like it owes you money. and Divide and conquer. 

[Charles R. Stevens]

The easyest thing to do with Brian's youtube vidioes is to watch them once or twice with out the sound, watch how effortlessly or so it seams)the hot steel moves, then turn on the sound and listen as he explanes it. Dosnt realy matter if you like the termanitligy he uses, what maters is that you can learn somthing from his techniques and methidology. Just as well as from many othersmiths.

 

[SJS]

I've seen Peter Ross demo a couple of times but he was working on pieces where precision was more important than just moving metal.  I used to work a lot of 3/4" and 1" square by hand, and seeing Brian squirt 2" square by hand had an overwhelming affect on me, that and him beating me in a forging contest:-)  Brian, Hofi, and Tom Clark moved metal in a most impressive way, they may have chosen flamboyant projects that showed off their forging efficiency, and I'm just a goob who is easily impressed, I'm willing to entertain that is possible.  I have never felt like the metal moved as much as it should under my hammer, always just a little disappointed that I didn't get more done in a heat, even when I was forging 1" by hand regularly...  I have watched a lot of demonstrators over the years, I try to be humble enough to learn from who ever I can (don't always succeed, but I do try;-) but Brian Brazeal, Uri Hofi and Tom Clark impressed me.  Peter Ross's demos where informative, but like a lot of cool blacksmithing projects it was slow to develop and I wandered off, my bad I'm sure...  The demonstrators I enjoyed the most either showed off tremendous skill quickly, or engaged me with ideas, and tips that helped me build my mental tool box...

[gote]

 

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet (Shakespeare)

A hammer by any other name would hit as hard (me)

A hammer is a hammer is a hammer (After Gertrud Stein.)

”First rectify the names!”  Confucius.

To my understanding, and in blacksmithing, a die is a piece that is used to form iron and which is hit on by a hammer or used in a press or sits on the anvil. A search for the word ’die’ on the net gives similar definitions. The die is not the Press, not the Hammer nor the Anvil.

 A die is usually convex i.e. something the steel is forced into. A fuller is thus not a die.

To stretch material one can use the pein, a fuller, the edge of a hammer, the edge of the anvil, the horn of the anvil, a guillotine, a... you name it. All better than using the flat face of a hammer onto the anvil. This does not make them dies.

To call a’hammer’ a ’die’ is only confusing. Of course if one wants to confuse bystanders one can change the meaning of words. Call the hammer the die, call the die the anvil and the anvil the hammer. Lots of fun – until your helper gives you the fuller when you need a chisel.

If we call the hammer die, what do we call the die??

Cheers

Göte

 

 

[Rashelle]

When trying to communicate a concept to someone who is not understanding the "technical language you would use" you end up using words and wording that they do understand. Or pantomime or whatever. So the use of the word die comes out and when explained that way you can see peoples face light up as the phrasing clicks and they understand the answer to their question. Not everyone communicates the same even speaking the same language. So without talking down to others, who are not understanding what you are saying, (especially if you have to use technical jargon) how do you explain a concept that is foreign to them? You use words and phrasing that they can relate to. Or pantomime, whatever. The bulk of you tube users are not blacksmiths, so using technical terms is out. The bulk of the public that comes into national parks are also not usually blacksmiths, technical terms are again out. You can watch someones face and see their struggle to understand as you try to explain a concept, you can also watch them as they do understand at least a little. So then the next time someone is not understanding you use the same phrasing and wallah you see comprehension much faster. The time after that you use the same phrasing whenever you see lack of understanding. More people seem to understand using the edges of hammer, anvil, and different shaped tooling faster when technical terms are not used. Thus in my experience telling them to think of things as dies helps their understanding. When people desire further understanding is when the technical terms (the foreign language) come into play. Each person depending on their apparent comprehension is communicated with in a slightly different manner. We all are in constant change. Communication changes. The only thing constant is time.

[ThomasPowers]

Who would know the term "die" and not know the term "hammer"?  Hammer is common usage; die is more jargon.

Even in the factory they know what a "martillo" is when I suggest it as a method of fixing delicate computer equipment.

[Black Frog]

On power hammers we have all sorts of "dies".  Top and bottom dies.

Round dies, flat dies, drawing dies, custom dies.....  they can have many different shapes to perform different tasks.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Black Frog

[Dodge]

Well  said, SJS. I get what Mr Brazeal is talking about with his use of the word, "dies", but I also get that he's using the term to describe the diversity of a hammer. You don't have to just use the face to hit just like you don't hit everything on the face of the anvil. Take-away is, don't get hung up of peoples different names for tools as long as you glean why they are calling it that. My dad always call "channel locks" "water pump pliers" or simply, "water pumps" I learned later, that Channellock is a patented brand name and "water pump" was a common type of the tool more accurately called slip joint pliers. After the first couple calls for them (I was his tool gopher since I was about 8 ) I knew what he meant and I even after I learned the "right name", I knew not to correct him . So, call it a hammer if you are more comfortable with that but know that the various surfaces act like dies in use. I call my hammers Betty, Sue, Gertrude, Gladys, Brunhilda and Bertha.  

Edited April 9, 2015 by Dodge
clarity