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Newbe needs help with anvil for sale


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I found this anvil for saIe but know nothing about it.  By looking at it can you tell me if its good/bad and what its worth.  The owner says it weighs 100-125 lbs.  Don't know if that weight includes the stand or not.   This thing is about 2 1/2 hrs away from me.  I,m hoping  an expert here can warn me if its no good and before I drive that far.  The other side looks about the same.  No markings. 

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cant tell a lot from those pictures and not knowing which part of the world you are in means locals cant help you much either.

it probably has markings but they have been hidden by the paint.

where in the world you are can affect anvil values a lot, here in the UK anvils are quite common and I could buy an anvil here for 100 uk pounds that may go for 10 times that in australia

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Hard to tell but the face thickness seems thin and with some edge issues

At close to $3 a pound and not being in an anvil poor section of the country I would say that was probably high. Of course "guesstimate anvil weights" can be off by 100 pounds or more in my experience and the stand is worth some too---if it's the correct height for *YOU* if it's not then the stand takes away from the price...

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without makers name or at least knowing what it is made from and how, a rebound test with a ball bearing, checking for any dead spots on the face with a small hammer, looking under it for handling holes and checking the base.

it could be a cast iron ASO ( anvil shaped object ) that would be ok as a boat anchor

it could be made of wrought iron and be hard and in good condition or have been in a fire and be very soft and useless

it could be a cast steel with a toolsteel face

I am no expert but would not spend that sort of money with out knowing a lot more

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   Thanks guys.  My other option is there is a scrap yard near by that has a lot of thick plate cut to different sizes and shapes.  I may be wrong but I think he said (on the phone) that it is about 3 inches thick.  I don't know if he said price per pound or not.  I  might at least check out what he has and get a price.    I'll let you know what I find.

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I would look into the steel cut offs and see if you can get a heavier one for less.  Many smiths have been using blocks of steel professionally for the majority of the time there have been blacksmiths.  I would ask the seller if the weight was with the stand and see if they can get any pictures of any stamp marks.

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You just don't have enough info at the moment. If the seller is willing to work with you have them find, and take some pics of the markings, edges, horn, etc. With today's technology they can even send you a video of it showing rebound, how it sounds when tapped with  a hammer, etc. If they are unwilling to do this, hit the scrapyard. There you can get more weight for your money, plus several different shapes, and sizes.

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I'm an indoctrinate myself so any corrections or additional information will be helpful as I am looking myself. It appears to me that the anvil has a top plate? From what I have read this is a good thing if it has good and uniform rebound and as long as the plate is thicker than 1/4" or so?

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Bo: Take a closer look at the pictures. What looks like it might be a face plate may actually be a cast feature intended to mimic a face plate. Or as my cast Swedish steel anvil the appearance of a face plate is just a cast in feature but it's as top quality as an anvil can get.

The lesson here is appearances can be deceiving, these pics just have too little detail to be able to develop a valid opinion.

There are a lot of guys here who have decades of experience judging anvil quality and condition and none of them are speaking up except to say we need better pictures and more info.

About face plates. They are generally a good thing, even if they're beaten up some. Judging their condition involves a couple issues: physical damage dents, dings and chipped edges are pretty normal wear and tear, how bad is THE quantitative judgement. Torch cuts and weld spatter is abuse and all too common. A delaminated or fire annealed face plate is serious damage and can be determined by a rebound test. It is simply eyeball estimating how much energy the anvil returns to an impacting steel object. It's incident of rebound.

The easiest method is to bounce a steel bearing off the face from a given height and estimating how far it bounces. Lots of guys say use a 1" bearing or a 1/2" bearing or some such. It doesn't matter, not really, though a tiny bearing would be a PITA. It's the hardness of the steel and it's shape that counts. A sphere will always rebound at a predictable angle so just brushing the dust off the face is all the prep you need. I have some 3/8" bearings and that's what I carry in a pocket when I'm out garage saling. A larger bearing will bounce higher so it's easier to judge because the % scale is larger. Just don't get carried away.

The other easy test it to let a smooth faced hammer bounce on it and estimate the rebound. I keep a light, about 8oz. ball pein in the SUV at all times, the one in the pickup is heavier because I drive the pin out of the hitch receiver with it. I always have a hammer.

What you're looking for besides % rebound is uniformity of rebound. There will be natural variation and it is a perfect example of where you need to do most of your work. The center of the anvil directly over the waist will have the best rebound while the heal and horn will have significantly less. This is to be expected. What you don't want to see but CERTAINLY want to find are dead spots. If you're finding say 75% rebound and hit a spot with 20% or one that just says clack you've found a dead spot. In an anvil with a welded face plate this PROBABLY indicates a weld failure or delamination. I like using a hammer better than a bearing because you can literally FEEL it through the handle. If you're interested it's easy to define the size and shape of the delamination which will also tell you a little more. Tap around the delamination till you find where it transitions to good face. If the transition is relatively sharp it's probably a failed weld. If on the other hand it fades, say over an inch then it's where some blankety blank used it as a bench to gas weld or torch heat something and ran it's temper out. either way it's a BAD spot and takes someone with expert skills and good equipment and time to repair. It's a deal killer unless the price drops through the floor.

Cast anvils are a different kettle of soup. Some are what we call ASOs (Anvil Shaped Objects) and barely better than nothing for blacksmithing. ASOs are generally common in hardware stores and are cast iron, soft and easily chipped. Like I say they're better than nothing and I mean NOTHING. Do NOT buy one for any long term use they're okay hardy tool holders but will even wear, they're too heavy for door stops but make good boat anchors.

Good ones? Oh you BETCHA, some are world class excellent anvils, Swedish cast steel is about as good as it gets. The guys have been waiting for this, Soderfors anvils are as good an anvil as I've ever used but it's not the only brand, Kolhswa is another Swedish steel anvil and top shelf, Brooks, are up there and there are some modern American cast steel anvils that are top shelf, Nimba is the only brand coming to mind right now. It's TBI damage <sigh>

Anyway, there are good cast steel anvils but you gotta be careful, rebound test will give you a good idea if it's hard enough to perform well.

Then there are the forged anvils with forged iron or steel bodies and welded high carbon steel face. New ones are very high quality and can be trusted to be worth the money, there are rare exceptions but the people making them will replace them if notified. Old forged anvils should be rebound tested.

Last but far FAR from least is an American Icon anvil, the Fisher. They have a high carbon steel face and a cast iron body. They're not only top shelf forging anvils they are quiet. Oh you can hear them but they do NOT ring, if a different type anvil made that sound you'd rightly call it a dead face. Fisher's however are quiet because the cast iron body has a different resonant frequency than the high carbon steel face so the sound wave from impact doesn't reverberate the different frequencies are self damping. I LOVE Fishers they're great anvils.

And wasn't that long and windy? Sure it's long but it's just touching on evaluating an anvil and even knowing all this junk you need to actually see, hear and feel it to be able to accurately evaluate an anvil. This entire craft is built on two things, knowledge and practice. A little knowledge requires a LOT of practice to make it properly useful.

Now I'm thinking after putting all this bandwidth out if there isn't a section on IFI about evaluating anvils. It might be a good one. Get some of the really knowledgeable guys to post how they test and evaluate anvils or heck just tools. Hmmmm?

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

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Going waaaaay out on a limb here based on a couple of blurry phone pics taken from a distance, but:

I have never seen a cast anvil with that much rake fore and aft, so I think that it is a wrought iron/steel face make from about 1880 - 1900, before the arched heel became popular. I can see some edge chipping on both sides, but that is all I can make out. Forget about maker's name, you can't forge on a name, demand detailed pictures of the face. One from the top, showing any pitting, torch cuts or weld repairs, and one from the side with a straight edge for reference. An eighth inch of daylight is acceptable, three eighths is not. 

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Well I went to the scrap yard today and I'm glad I did.   They had a big pile of precut steel blocks.  All different sizes and thickness.  I got 2 pieces and they totaled 600 lbs and it cost me $240.  They were cut on a big band saw so they are quit smooth not like being cut with a torch.  Steel was 40 cents a lb.  I don't know what is considered a good ring or bounce, but bounce seems real good.  The big one don't ring as much as the little one.    The top plate is 3 inches thick.    Actually the top plate rings more than I really would like,  but it might not ring as much after it is welded to the bigger piece.  Together they stand about 24 inches tall.    I want to do some mill work on the top piece before I weld them together.   Just a couple holes.  Any other ideas what to do to the top piece?

 

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Edited by tewitt1949
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You'll lose performance welding the plate to the top of the block. the block alone is an excellent anvil as it stands, needing only a little radiusing of the edges. The steel plate stood on edge would make a fine anvil as well. Welding the plate on as a base wouldn't hurt but you'd lose it as a stand alone anvil or set of edge swages.

You really don't find much use for a large flat surface like that unless you're forging anchors and such. I think you have a couple fine anvils just wanting a little dressing and stands.

Frosty The Lucky.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Like others have said, hard to tell from the pics., but appears to be cast iron due to the thick heel.  I have a smaller Southern Crescent which is cast and (I think) has a steel top... maybe - maybe not.  I have mine on a rolling stand and use it rarely but it's handy to move around the shop when I need a portable anvil.  All I've ever done w/ it is use it to center punch bar to feed into the ironworker, it's fine for that.  As others have said, if it is CI, it will NOT ring, that in itself is a good thing considering I'm dang near deaf to start with (too many jack hammers and guns).  CI is better than nothing and OK for a starting place in your smithing venture.  Just be aware it isn't the best quality out there.  I've always got my eye out for another anvil, at last count I had15 grandkids and want to leave them all with one when I leave the smithy for the last time.

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