Skills,good and bad.

[MAD MAX]

So I was thinking the other day about what I am good at and what needs improvement. I have two skills that I am what I feel, Better than average at. First is hammer control, I have always been able to hit exactly where I wanted to with a hammer. The other is filing, I can file something so that it looks almost machined.

Now the bad. I am terrible at bending things so that they look even halfway good. When I do something where I have to bend it, it looks like a 4th grader did it. Next is one I hate to even talk about, I am SLOW it takes me forever to get anything done and when I need to work fast so as to not lose heat I usually lose the heat too fast.  I am NOT artistic. I cannot do anything that requires any kind of  artwork, its just not in me. Then there is what has become my nemesis................ Forge welding, I have tried to Forge weld something about 20 times to no avail. I usually try it once in a while then give up on it for a few months. I have been told that forge welding is the easiest skill in Blacksmithing to learn but I simply cannot get it.

I guess Ill just keep on moving forward and try and get better at everything. I spent 5 hours Sunday trying a forge weld that never stuck so it will be a while before I try again.

[ThomasPowers]

Are you trying it on your own?  I needed an expert peering over my shoulder telling me what I was doing wrong including his famous Quote: "Don't look at it *hit* it!

[MAD MAX]

Are you trying it on your own?  I needed an expert peering over my shoulder telling me what I was doing wrong including his famous Quote: "Don't look at it *hit* it!

​I have learned everything on my own, I have never had instruction on anything.

[Frosty]

No wonder you're mad Max, being entirely self taught is only a good thing in urban myth. Have you looked into joining NWBA? They're a heck of a bunch of guys and you'll learn more in an hour with an experienced smith than days, maybe forever on your own. I know, I'm largely self taught but didn't really start learning till I started working with the experienced.

Seriously, drop by my shop on a warmish day and I'll show you how t forge weld in about 15 minutes. It's a first session lesson I teach as a confidence builder. I'd been trying to teach myself to weld for I don't know how many years till I ran into a little book reading then I got one. I was so excited I literally beat the joint to wire but it stuck.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Max,

What type of forge ... Coal.. Charcoal... Gas....  ?  Each has a procedure and temperature control.. Once we know that we can offer more help...  If all else fails we will air drop you at Frostys for a quick class...  Bring your long johns...  LOL

Forge on and make beautiful things

Jim

[Eddie Mullins]

Hands on instruction can be a real game changer. At our last club meeting a member who had been unsuccesful forge welding did it his first try after seeing it demo'd and getting some instruction. Books and the net are awesome learning tools as is own your own practice, but find another smith if you can, a few minutes could equal days of trial and error on your own.

[JeremyP]

being completely self taught is definatly taking the long road, but it's still possible to learn a lot just experimenting.

I've taken a few weekend coarses to learn various techniques and you learn so much in those few days, not only the hands on instruction but also watching others do the same techniques. Discussing with others the various problems that arise. The last coarse I took, was on techniques that I've already been working on for a while, even so I learned a ton just by being able to watch the master do the work, by being able to ask him questions as well as collaborating with the other students. I highly recommend finding someone close by to learn from, it will fire up your passion for the art even more!

[swedefiddle]

Mr. Max............

Sometimes, the harder you try, the harder it is.

The NWBA is having their Spring Conference, May 15-17 at the Fairgrounds in Longview, Washington. They also have a get together, the last Sunday of every month, at Longview as well. Make the date and I/we will help you.

Some of the NWBA members live in the Sisters-Bend area. A small group of VERY knowledgeable Smiths.

Neil Gustafson

[turbo7]

Max I had good hammer control... Untill I spent a bit of time with an eperienced Blacksmith. There is too much in hitting hot steel not to warrant at least one visit to an experienced Blacksmith IMO.

[Malice9610]

I feel your pain Max, I just started doing this stuff back in January of this year, with Forge Welding being at the top of the list of " Things I must learn how to do "  and have had very limited success making it work, Infact currently, I have successfully made exactly 1 forge weld, I attempted to forge weld a stack of 6 inch long 1/2 inch flat stock, and was able to get the first inch to forge weld completely, The rest refused to weld. 

My last attempt failed spectacularly, burned off a good half inch of a 2 inch length of O1 and ruined my first half decent spilt using a hot cut off the section of Rail spike I was trying to forge the O1 to.  But I still try every time I fire up the forge, I just try to always use Scraps with the intent of getting the process down.

Good luck man, and keep trying, even though I consider my one successful attempt a " failure " as I couldnt forge weld the entire piece it was still very much a confidence builder to grind down the end afterwards and see that i actually did it for once. 

[Clif]

Max,

I had/have the same issue.  I don't get many opportunities to work with skilled smiths.  I spent ages trying forge welding with no success.  A friend stopped by the forge one day with a school friend in tow.  turned out to be a proper blacksmith (by proper I mean went to school and earns his living from blacksmithing) from down near London. In about 10 seconds he told me what I was doing wrong.  I get scrap steel from work, Stainless Steel that is.  Arc, MIG, or TIG all day long, never get it fire welded using charcoal or in a gasser.  ONE limitation of the self taught method, I do not know how different steels react or what is good for what.  As my medieval style forge would not get to welding temps Jude was not able to help me weld that day.  I got to make my first weld working with The Iron Dwarf using his coke forge at a different event.  it took about 10 mins and some pointers from Dave and I had it.  Now have to try it at home.  Best of luck.

Clif

[ThomasPowers]

Would you want to go to a surgeon or a mechanic that "learned it all on their own"?  No virtue in re-inventing the wheel and most of use won't live long enough to make all the mistakes previous folks have and to learn from them.  If you go to conferences you can see folks renowned in smithing watching other smiths and picking up a trick or two from them.

[Rashelle]

Max like Neil said we have monthly get togethers in Longview. It is generally the 4th Saturday of each month. This month it is Mark Aspery, next month it is Arnon Kartnazov likely doing a Japanese knife, May is the spring conference. June is Bob Denman doing garden tools, July will be on a different day as the Fair is going on, we will be there for the fair just not doing the hammer in on the regular day, July will be on the 11th Wade Seiders doing a hammer poll belt axe. August we may not be having an event as there is blacksmith week up at Mount Hood. Note the details listed above may change. In the event of cancellations where we can't get another rescheduled I'll step in and do a hammer forging demo. At least get yourself on the NWBA email list to keep abreast of current events. All the above are a 3 hour demo by the persons listed followed by open forge for the rest of the day.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Rashelle
mispelling

[rockstar.esq]

I'm certainly no master but the bending thing got me thinking a bit.  I'm a Journeyman Electrician which requires a great deal of conduit bending.  Obviously there are big differences between conduit and bar stock but there are a few things to consider.

First, lots of blacksmiths use bending jigs, forks, and fixtures to get things right.  It's not "cheating" to get a perfect bend without using the wonky angle of an anvil's horn and your hammer.  During my apprenticeship, a journeyman demonstrated how he could reliably and accurately bend a section of rebar using the crook of a tree.  He literally calculated the "benders" takeup and used that to mark bend locations.

Second, work in one plane  and one bend at a time.  Lots of complex shapes can be made working plane at a time.  Bending a little piece of wire is sometimes helpful

Third,  accuracy generally requires three points of reference.  Think of it like the sights on a gun.  Rear sight, front sight, target.  A bend can be "witnessed" along a straight section with remarkable precision.  While I'm on the topic, give yourself visual reference points like a point punched mark so you can align the piece again if you need to add a bit to a bend.

Fourth, fix mistakes early.  A dogleg will only make things worse when it's buried ten bends later.

 

[MAD MAX]

Well to answer a few questions. My forge is a pretty small affair, It is a hand cranked Buffalo forge that I think might have been a rivet forge. I modified it a little and made it somewhat deeper with a brake drum addition. Charcoal is the fuel I use but I think its designed for Coal witch I have never used. It is about 25 inches across the pan and about 6-7 inches deep at the deepest part. I put it in a steel table more to my taste.  Longview Wa. is a long way from me, about 4-5 hours.

This may be hard to believe but I have went to 3 different smiths and asked about forge welding and none of them could do it either. One guy told me that its impossible to do with charcoal as a fuel.

I have not been to any Blacksmiths events as yet, Despite the fact that I am not a youngster Such things have always been tough for me. I have never been a "joiner" . Now I am not saying anything bad about anybody, you all seem like great guys. I have just always been uncomfortable with such things . I may try and make the get together in Longview in May, but its a stretch. Another thing that suprises most people is that I have never worked with a single piece of mild steel its all been high carbon so far. Thanks to everyone.

 

[Rashelle]

Real wood charcoal is possible to forge weld in. That was used before coal became more economical with lack of trees. There are other smiths in the central Oregon area. If you are using high carbon as a steel, trying to learn forge welding on some alloys could be pretty tricky. Try some simple smaller mild steel welding projects to learn on. Such as flux spoon, miniature axe, scrap, leaf stems, Don't use briquets use real wood charcoal. There are a lot of things that can go wrong with forge welding. Are the pieces scaling up? Where in the fire are you placing them? Are they clean and looking translucent when pulled out of the fire? Will they stick together in the fire? Forge welding is not as hard as it's made out to be but it really does benefit from haveing an experienced person there to explain and show it.

[Frosty]

One thing I've learned some time ago is, people who say you CAN'T  do a thing, like weld with . . . really mean THEY can't or more probably just don't know how and are embarrassed to admit it.

You CAN weld with charcoal briquettes but it's not as easy. You have to break them up to peanut size or too much air gets past them and oxidizes the joint. The binder used makes a difference: coal is fine, as is "polymer" or wood pulp or another is white (Elmer's) glue. Clay binder isn't good and tends to make clinker. Briquettes are made from the powdered remains from making wood alcohol so Henry Ford discovered if it's compressed with a binder it comes out little bricks you can cook with. This was IIRC around WWI when fuel was getting to be hard to find and torpedoes needed something that didn't need as much oxy as gasoline.

Anyway, there are a lot of better solid fuels than briquettes but they WILL work if needs must.

Forge welding is simple if you follow the steps. Match the join, Clean clean clean, (the shinier the better) flux lightly and bring to temp. Solid but NOT hard blows to set the weld. We can talk about pattern later if you're welding wide joints. After the setting weld test by laying one side against the anvil for 15-20 seconds to cool and examine the joint. If one side is a different color than the other with a sharp divide the weld didn't set. Brush, reflux, reheat and set again. After it passes the test, brush flux, reheat and "refine" the weld. Repeat the refine weld and try forging across the joint to see if it'll shear. If it doesn't shear it's good to go.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ianinsa]

Hi Max, my 2 cents worth, firstly I live on the southern tip of Africa so more than 25 hours of flying time and a couple of hours of driving to get to a NWBA conference yet I've made it a couple of times, they really are one great bunch. Secondly one of the most difficult things to master with forge welding it NOT to try and hit the *%$# out of it at first, as it seems counter intuitive. Both Mark and Arnon have a great teaching "style" so either (preferably both) would be really worthwhile.

[Francis Trez Cole]

it may not be skills, what it may be habits.  poor habits can lead to poor work and good habits will help when things go in the wrong direction

[SJS]

Most of us tend to be visual and kinetic learners.  It is MUCH easier to have someone show you A correct way to do something, and then have you try it, then they explain again about a "minor" detail that you thought you understood and were doing, but really wasn't....  Spring steels don't like to weld to themselves, you can weld it to mild, or wrought, or even a file or O1, but getting a stupid lap/faggot weld to take is a bear;-)  Several of the alloy steels don't weld very easily and are hot short to boot.  Wrought welds pretty easily, cold rolled 1018 welds pretty easy...  If you join the NWBA you also get access to the library and can get books and video to learn from even if you aren't a people person.  You could start by checking out "How to forgeweld for those who have diligently tried and failed"  I always tell people that there are no real shortcuts to learning blacksmithing, its just if you have a good guide, you get a lot further down the trail a lot faster, than if you are just wandering around on your own,,,

[MAD MAX]

I am not using briquettes, It is real charcoal that I make my self From Oak and pine. So far leaf spring is all I have tried to weld. I need to get a roof over my smithing area because I have put it off too long. So it is likely all projects are on hold for a while. I have never hit something I was attempting to weld hard, I usually use a 14 ounce hammer on it.

[Frosty]

Max: Try a heavier hammer but don't let it bounce on impact. Don't let it linger on the weld, just don't let it bounce, a steel faced dead blow hammer just might be de bomb for welding.

We tend to confuse kinetic energy with momentum, E=1/2mv.sq. is really only true on paper. Seriously, think a 3,500lb auto impacting a 70,000lb road grader at 20mph. is going to bounce the grader? I got rear ended by a dump truck doing 25mph in a 73,000lb. Cat 14G and literally didn't notice the impact. It's momentum that determines how the energy is transferred. Don't take my word for it rig an experiment where a given weight impacts a target at a given speed then repeat it with a weight 1/10 the weight at 10x the speed and compare the results. Good test targets are Al or Pb blocks.

For those of you who can do the math (I'm no good myself) read "The Practical Guide to Man Powered Bullets." By Richard Middleton, it's chock full of formulae and good explanations.

I rely on two factors to post this with the confidence I have. First is experience, been using hammers, hitting things and being hit all my life. The other factor is reading this book, Mr. Middleton has centuries of data and calculations of ballistics as evidence of the common physics of what's going on.

A light hammer going fast will tend to shear the surface and mushroom the steel, a GOOD thing for heading rivets, tenons, etc. A heavy hammer's energy will continue in a straighter line from point of impact with less lateral deflection. Force ALWAYS takes the path of least resistance and the more the momentum the less it will deflect.

So, that's my corroborating evidence for using a heavy hammer in a dead blow strike for setting welds. I want all that energy to go straight into and through the join then stop. If the anvil hits back I want the hammer to buck the join, not be easy for me to lift back up. Easy to lift the hammer back up isn't my intent when welding.

Of course that's just my opinion I could be wrong.

Frosty The Lucky.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Frosty

[turbo7]

Frosty, Thank you for the lesson sir

[Frosty]

No need siring me, I'm just passing things along. I learned almost everything I know from someone else, I figure passing it on is as it should be. It's not like we can keep these things secret like in the old guild days. Besides, I like to talk. <wink>

Frosty The Lucky.

[LastRonin]

Max: Try a heavier hammer but don't let it bounce on impact. Don't let it linger on the weld, just don't let it bounce, a steel faced dead blow hammer just might be de bomb for welding.

We tend to confuse kinetic energy with momentum, E=1/2mv.sq. is really only true on paper. Seriously, think a 3,500lb auto impacting a 70,000lb road grader at 20mph. is going to bounce the grader? I got rear ended by a dump truck doing 25mph in a 73,000lb. Cat 14G and literally didn't notice the impact. It's momentum that determines how the energy is transferred. Don't take my word for it rig an experiment where a given weight impacts a target at a given speed then repeat it with a weight 1/10 the weight at 10x the speed and compare the results. Good test targets are Al or Pb blocks.

For those of you who can do the math (I'm no good myself) read "The Practical Guide to Man Powered Bullets." By Richard Middleton, it's chock full of formulae and good explanations.

I rely on two factors to post this with the confidence I have. First is experience, been using hammers, hitting things and being hit all my life. The other factor is reading this book, Mr. Middleton has centuries of data and calculations of ballistics as evidence of the common physics of what's going on.

A light hammer going fast will tend to shear the surface and mushroom the steel, a GOOD thing for heading rivets, tenons, etc. A heavy hammer's energy will continue in a straighter line from point of impact with less lateral deflection. Force ALWAYS takes the path of least resistance and the more the momentum the less it will deflect.

So, that's my corroborating evidence for using a heavy hammer in a dead blow strike for setting welds. I want all that energy to go straight into and through the join then stop. If the anvil hits back I want the hammer to buck the join, not be easy for me to lift back up. Easy to lift the hammer back up isn't my intent when welding.

Of course that's just my opinion I could be wrong.

Frosty The Lucky.

Considering the expected mass and probable velocity of a falling Birch, we're glad your cranium didn't mushroom laterally.