UK workshop rental prices

[Joel OF]

Hi folks, I'm hunting around for a new workshop in the region of 500 sq ft / 50 sq metres to rent and I'm curious as to what folks in the UK would expect to pay for that sort of space?

 

Obviously there's a lot variables that can affect a rental price (the main one being I live in the south east where everything's more expensive) so please bare with me and consider that I'm just talking rules of thumb on a no thrills workshop that's got electric, hard floor, double doors, 4 walls and a roof.

 

I'm at a bit of a loss trying to understand if the quotes I'm getting back are what's to be expected or people are just being greedy with their rents. Maybe people could offer some opinion on private arrangements vs business park prices? The last 2 quotes I've had back were from business parks that only had spaces a bit bigger than what I'm after and their quotes were were £120 a week and £105. There's no way on earth I can afford those sort of prices at an early stage of my career.

 

As I am tucked away on a farm at the minute (a very laid back deal with a family friend) I had hoped to find somewhere near other businesses so I have a little more exposure to the general public in the winter months when I'm not out there doing demonstrations/market/fairs, but if those are the sorts of prices I should expect from commerical enterprises I may have to go down the private farm route again...

 

Cheers

[Everything Mac]

I'm in a similar situation Joel, I looked into it a while ago and like you there's no way I could afford to pay the £300 odd a month figures I've seen kicking around. 

I don't know but I assume there would be certain issues with insurance and any smoke generated as well? I can't imagine anywhere would be too keen on you hacking a hold in the wall/ roof to fit a chimney... 

 

Please let me know how you get on mate as I'd be very interested to hear about it. 

 

The only thing I can think of is to approach somewhere that a forge has already been set up and perhaps isn't in use anymore. There was a farm not too far from my folks that had a forge for grabs but I think it went a long time ago. 

 

All the best 

Andy

[basher]

Those prices sound reasonable and are much cheaper than around here.

 I was given good advice when I went to blacksmithing college and that was to keep my overheads as low as possible.

 ask yourself what you would gain by being in a commercial area? you will get much better cash deals from farmers.

I would look for galleries and the internet to put work around in the winter. when I did that kind of work galleries before xmas were a great source of off season income.

 

[tzonoqua]

timely topic for me right now.. I've pretty much outgrown my little unit on a farm which is only about 42 m2, I'm having difficulties with space to lay work out etc. I pay £150 a month.  Am looking to get something bigger and better, and have found something absolutely amazing, 100 m2, with mezzanine office,  side store room of 13m2, huge ceiling height, double doors, outdoor space and 3phase.. the rent there is 274 a month plus electric and rates although i'm unsure whether I'll have to pay rates as i might be entitled to rate relief. It's a little off the beaten path down some dorset lanes but only 10 min from my house on a farm with other units (willow weaver, cabinet maker etc)  there is enough access for lorries. So I am umming and awwing whether to take it on..  or just continue to re-organize my little space and not have the extra overheads.. and the cost of moving is not cheap either, especially now I have a power hammer and I will have to install a flue to code (twin wall stainless is costly!)  But if I move I will finally have room to swing a cat!! I really want this new unit but am unsure whether to take on more overheads, even if they are relatively small.. some weeks I go without a cheque from a job.. suppose it makes you work harder though.. lol

[Joel OF]

Well, since starting this thread I've come quite a way with finding a workshop and as things stand I'm talking with the estate manager of a stately home that's open to the public about a workshop space in the grounds of the estate. Although I only ever intended to find a workspace approx 50 sq/m the estate manager has offered me a space that's approx 85 sq/m for £3000 a year including VAT...which is very appealing. No rates, electric on top.

The space they have available needs a lot of restoration to get it usable again as it was originally a cow shed though they have a good track record with restoring the building (which is in a U shape with a courtyard in the middle of the U) as one wing of the U has been restored and is now used by a green woods craftsman (who has clients and pupils visit regularly). His wing was originally in the same delapidated condition but the estate restored it to a very good standard. The estate will pretty much be restoring my wing to my specifications, within reason. The linking section of the U is also in a poor state of repair but is due to be restored as a furniture restorer is keen on renting it.

There are niggles like low tie beams approx 2.3m from ground height where the building is in bays but there is a good working space of 4.5m x 4.5m at one end where there's no tie beams and the roof is very high and in general the positives outweigh the niggles so I think it'll be a great location for my business to grow. The estate hold sculpture shows in the summer, the gardens will be able to use my plants supports, and elsewhere on the estate are conservation builders and stone masons...all in all I couldn't really wish for a better location in terms of profile.

The floor needs attention too as it's only brick laid on compacted soil but we're in discussion about that...

[Alan Evans]

Sounds good. If you are paying rent they are not expecting you to be part of the public attraction are they? The Waterways Museum in Gloucester offered their Bradley Helve power hammer equipped workshop for free with free coke, provided the smith would interact with the public. The downside was the historic period required no welding equipment on show. They could use the welder in the non-public maintenance workshop next door or after hours.

Brick on compacted soil is fairly common for forges, I have worked in couple and seen many more. the bricks were not mortared in place which allows for drainage of water or horse pee if shoeing. My first forge was a shed built into a bit of sloping ground, I just took off the turf to the subsoil and used it as it was. Gradually the bits of scale and coke built it up the level.

Some of the smithies I have seen had the bricks removed and the anvil stump passed through, but most I seem to remember had moveable anvils with the stump just sitting on the brick.

They were heavy engineering bricks rather than house wall type of course.

One of the nicest floors I have worked on was wooden cobbled, 75mm (3") square hardwood about 200mm (8") long stacked with the end grain up.

If they are going to cast new concrete for you, a useful thing I have seen in Hermann Gradinger's and Christoph Friedrich's shops were exposed steel rails which acted as permanent shuttering and gave you the opportunity to weld stuff direct and hold it in place when assembling.

Alan

[Joel OF]

Cheers Alan, great info as always, many thanks. That exposed steel rail thing you mentioned is top banana.

What did you do about bolting down vices/flypress etc when you were in the loose laid brick workshops? Or even what did you do about the uneven floor level for assembling work that's too big to fit on a 2m x 1m bench?

The estate are concerned about the cost of laying a concrete slab & are also keen to keep the bricks for their charm, (the workshops are very idyllic), but obviously my main concern is having a safe trip hazard free floor that I can also use as a work surface. My workshop a.t.m has a concrete floor so I've become used to the luxury & the prospect of not having one makes me squirm a bit.

No I wouldn't be an attraction so to speak the workshops are set back from the house & gardens in an area that's only accessible by appointment only. I desperately want the workshop to work out, y'know when you get that gut feeling that if it happens you're onto something great...

[Alan Evans]

Yes I know exactly what you mean by the luxury of concrete, being able to wheel stuff around, easy to sweep, stable for trestles.

I had a disaster when I cast the floor in my shop. The concrete pump I had hired started up and immediately the heavens opened, I have never seen rain like it, the concrete already wet to go through the pump was diluted by almost 15% extra water. We could not even scrape it level to the shuttering it just flowed under the tamping bar, nightmare.

The steel rails I noted at Hermann's and Christoph's and vowed that if ever I cast another shop floor I would do it in small sections with permanent steel shuttering. Basically form a grid and fill it in flush with concrete.

You could always just use a bit of steel plate on the floor for your assembly if they don't want to lose the bricks. I have a 2.5 x 1.3 (IIRC) metre 40mm plate which weighs just around a tonne. It is up on trestles as a bench most of the time but on occasion I pick it up with the crane and drop it on the floor as a weld-to-able datum level. I often extend it with pairs of RSJs or channels if the the job demands. Even a brick floor is better than the suspended wooden floor I had in one shop. you would level up the trestles and then walk round to the other side and your weight would alter the levels!

Vices, one I made a three legged table which had a cup to take the leg vice end and the other I set it on a large lump of Oak which spread the load. Fly presses and  power hammers I just drove pins through the holes in the bases straight into the ground. The hammer was self contained and the fly press just wanted to rotate not lift so the pins worked fine.

Alan

 

 

[Dave Budd]

my previous workshops were the standard concrete floors, though one was very uneven and I had to fill areas to make it level (such as a 2" deep drainage gully running across the middle of the floor!)

Currently my workshop is clay, that is the ground on which the building is built. I had a digger in to level the ground and it was tracked over the area to compact it a bit, not as good as a whacker plate but cheap and quick. Apart from the damp issues I much prefer it to the concrete. Things don't break of they are dropped or fall over, the floor isn't cold in the winter and is much less wearing on the feet. If I need to bolt something down then I could cast a concrete base but I normally just bury a decent sized log instead. The area surrounding my forge and anvil has my clinkers spread and trampled into it, this is just to deal with the seasonal flooding (hill wash from 30 acres of fields coming through my building). 

I think Matt Dingle (based at Escot house near Ottery St Mary) has an earth floor too. His is cut into sandy soil, so rather than it becoming a dust bath he has spread a few inches of gravel over the floor. That seems to work very nicely and once it has settled and filled with dust/debris is quite solid too

[Joel OF]

Thanks very much for all the advice and anecdotes, it's nice to hear that the experienced guys have gone through their own share of "fun and games" with workshop spaces.

I guess you guys didn't get / don't get problems with tools or benches sinking into the floor? Or tilting unevenly over time?

The other day when I was discussing the floor and ways to bolt down tools with the estate manager he was brainstorming ideas and suggested something that's not too different to your steels in the floor suggestion Alan - he suggested putting a concrete pads and bolting RSJs to that so that tools could be fixed to the RSJs. I didn't give the idea much creedance as I felt it would limit the locations I could site tools, but if he's not too offended by concrete pads and RSJs visible then maybe I could sell him on your grid system idea as I think that could be a great asset.

[Dave Budd]

my benches are all built in position, so the legs are made from 6" oak logs set into the ground a couple of feet. I like stable and solid benches    Other machines, and things such as my bandsaws, that have small feet did sink to begin with. I just put ply wood or plate feet underneath each leg to spread the load and no more sinking.

 

Funnily enough, my coke forge sits on an old school type table frame (ie 30mm box section legs). I looked at it from  different angle when I cut a new doorway last summer and noticed it was leaning. So I jacked it up to put feet on it (I thought it had sunk an inch and settled there). Turned out that one side had sunk about 8"!  It was like working at an entirely new forge when I reset the height! haha

[Alan Evans]

Had it sunk or had the detritus on the floor built up? My earth floor did a bit of both!

I found things just became more stable as they they were swallowed up…

The foot hammer, Blacker and little Alldays were sitting on baulks of timber, not quite sleeper size,  I scraped the ground level beneath the timbers, taking out any stones that they would rock on, levelled and bedded the wood on a 25mm (1") layer of sand. The Reiter, because it was new and shiny and had rubber buffers under the inertia block I dug out and cast a concrete slab below ground level. That had plywood shuttering that came up above ground level and fitted against the sides of the inertia block, back filled with gravel, When I took the hammer out ten years later to relocate it, no gravel had found its way underneath surprisingly.

Alan

[Joel OF]

Apologies for the terrible scan quality but would you guys mind giving me your opinion on this workshop layout, and also my adaptation of Alan's steel in the floor suggestion?

I was given some 1:50 scale drawings by the estate manager which detailed all the parts of the building that need restoration, I deleted out that info and drew in a workshop layout + a sketch of some RSJs imbedded in the floor. The RSJs would be bolted down at either end to concrete pads, compacted earth between them then bricks laid on top of the earth to sit flush with the RSJs. Ultimately it'd give me an area of about 1m x 3 that I know is flat, and as Alan says, you can tack weld hard to assemble items down to it.

Thanks a million

[Dave Budd]

I'm not sure about the RSJ floor idea. I can see the benefit of having a floor that you can tack weld things to, but to me the metal rails in an earth floor is a combination of trip and slip hazards waiting to happen!

 

 

[jeremy k]

Joel - I use a 4ft x 10ft sheet of 1" plate on the floor when making things that are to big to fit on top of a table - I put it on a couple 4-5" wood blocks so I can get a pallet jack under the plate for moving when needed but it works as a table without legs in that what ever your building you can "tack weld" the parts to the plate and do all you welding as if on a table but it's on the floor so your not reaching so much. I also use a gantry to pick up the sheet/s to put vertically in a rack (gantry is on wheels) when not in use so floor is open for any other use.

[Alan Evans]

The only things that I have fixed in the forge are the chimney/hood and the 3cwt hammer. All the other hammers and presses and even the actual hearth are moveable. And I think I have had to move most of them at some time or another to accommodate a particular project. 

Your layout looks fine as a starting point. One thing about the floor rails' position is possibly I would put them further away from the hearth, maybe part under the bench position, though you may need them in the centre for maximum height over? Offset it would give you more space around the hearth to continue making components whilst the workpiece is being assembled. 

The rails I have seen were 50/100mm (2-4") wide and were set in concrete. I am thinking in terms of "I" beam rather than "H" or universal columns for mine. 

Although I agree with Dave that the rails in an earth floor do add a hazard I think the advantage easily outweighs the actual risk. a ) You are talking about a brick sett floor and b ) if it was a uneven earth floor having a level part or parts is the least of your worries. 

I cut through my floor slab with a diamond saw to isolate the Reiter and little Alldays hammers from the rest of the building. I cut out a 50mm (2") slot and then cut a ledge either side with an angle grinder and have loose strips of 100mm x 6mm (4" x 1/4") flat as removable non-vibration-transmitting  covers. Over the years I have tripped on them a couple of times when I have allowed the dust and crud to build up on the ledges under them…I have tripped over tools and workpieces on the floor many times...

Bearing the hazard in mind however, you might consider a halfway house which I was going to do at one time…instead of fixed rails just mount a column with a threaded top plate off your concrete footings and bring a grid of those to the surface. Carefully levelled upon installation, the rails could be bolted to them as and when needed without having to be levelled up each time. 

Alan

[Joel OF]

Cheers guys. I've pitched the idea in the drawings to the estate manager so I'll see what he says. I'm a one man band without a forklift or lifting gear at the minute so moving heavy plates of steel - or just anything awkward and heavy for that matter - is a hassle I'd rather avoid, I'd rather have something set in position in the floor I can rely on.

With regards to the position - away from the low tie beam is probably my biggest concern.

[Joel OF]

Well it seems the estate manager has conceeded that a concrete floor at the forging/fabricating end of the workshop would be beneficial so the steels in the floor aren't required anymore, though they do sound great I think I'd be pushing my luck. At the weekend I got down to the workshop site to take some pics of my wing of the building. I mainly aimed my camera towards of that end of the building I just mentioned, in that zone there's an area of approx 6m x 4m without any tie beams in the way and there's very good roof height.

It really does seem to be 1 step forward 2 steps back with this place, there's cottages on the estate that are rented out and when I popped down I happened to meet the tenant of the cottage that's closest to the workshop, his cottage is approx 65m away (measured on Google Earth). Seems like another conversation with estate manager is now needed regarding noise as he's got some interesting ideas about me quietening down when he wants to be in his garden.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Joel OF

[tzonoqua]

oh dear, the neighbour thing is quite worrying. You will at some point get a power hammer and i'm not sure they will be happy to hear bang bang bang when watering their dahlias.  I have a friend who is currently not allowed to use his power hammer by order of council because of a noise/subsidence dispute, so it can be quite serious.  Looks like it would be a great space when refurb'd though, if it all works out. My perfect space didn't work out, legal problems with the former tenant... tied up in court at the moment.   might have some other space soon though, am still on the lookout. Good luck with it. 

[Judson Yaggy]

Someone on that site is moving and/or processing that much wood and he's worried about noise from a shop 65m away?  You guys must have QUIET chainsaws and log trucks over there.  

Get rental and noise requirements in writing.  

The long diagonal brace and all the newer short ones on the back wall are a little worrying, beware of high winds!  Also, don't see evidence of electricity.  

Edited May 4, 2015 by Judson Yaggy

[Joel OF]

The long diagonal brace and all the newer short ones on the back wall are a little worrying, beware of high winds!  Also, don't see evidence of electricity.  

​The plan is they're going to restore the whole building to suit me - concrete floor, redo the walls, insulate and fireproof the walls, setup an electricity supply so I can have an electrician come along and site all the lights, sockets etc to suit me.

I've emailed the estate manager saying we need to talk about this a.s.a.p and that if I'm paying rent to run a business there I can't be told I've got to stop work whenever it suits the neighbours. I've also suggested we do some noise tests - I take along a grinder and make a racket and do the same with my small anvil (the one I can lift on my own) so this cottage tenant can see how much noise carries.

I've become matey with another cottage tenant who lives way over on the other side of the estate (I gave him a 1-2-1 blacksmithing lesson) and he said all that wood goes through a very noisy chipper which is run every few days or so and when it's running it's going all day. The main estate house is somehow powered off the mulch they chip so it's a constant thing and there's an estate team regularly out with chainsaws, tenant farmer with machinery etc. Hopefully it's just crossed wires but it's not worth taking a chance on.

[DSW]

Your picts remind me of my current "shop", right down to the saggy roof, wide open walls, uneven dirt floors and some one living near by who is concerned about noise. Only yours is currently in better shape in some ways. At least the land owner in your case is willing to do improvements. Mine doesn't have the money to put into the place ( and neither do I) , and anything I do, I have to run it by them 1st.

 

 

[John B]

Hi Joel,

Although I didn't "need" planning permission when I applied for it on a converted farm machinery storage shed, I nevertheless applied for it and it was granted with certain provisos, in my case, 8.00 am to 6.00pm no Sundays or Bank Holidays, 

There was a complaint after a couple of years from a neighbour and the Sound levels were tested, and they were found to be not excessive, 

I had checked it with a decibal counter and it was below 90dcb's, however the decibel measurement is not discussed, it hinged on "acceptable" levels,, and mine were thought to be well in limits. The interesting outcome was that although I had planning permission restrictions (as a business) I could forge outside those times as a hobby.

Complaining neighbour later had a restraining order put on them for excessive noise from radios etc. Ironic or what.

If the tenant is in a tied cottage, then that opens up other avenues.

Good luck with the outcome.

[Joel OF]

The interesting outcome was that although I had planning permission restrictions (as a business) I could forge outside those times as a hobby.

Ha!

We're arranging a noise test - I'm going to take along a grinder & my 1.5cwt anvil next week to make a racket and see how offended they are.

[John B]

I was running hearth, drill, lathe, Blacker powerhammer, all in use at same time, then angle grinder, hand drills, spot welder, welding plant, oxy burning equipment, all were found to be acceptable.

Also don' forget to emphasise that forging hot metal is less noisy than just bouncing off cold metal or the anvil, so if possible take a hearth and heat up the metal, make something as a souvenir for the testers.