Sluicebox Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I have a beautiful early Trenton 177lbs that was broken at the waist at some point. A repair was done on it by placing a large U Bolt through body of anvil just above fracture and terminating below the base. It was an effective repair. Later someone did follow up work on repairing it by prepping it to be welded at break by grinding it out over an inch deep at the fracture. It looks as if they intended to Weld the sides of anvil then remove the U Bolt and grind the front and back and weld the same way. It doesn't look like the two pieces were ever separated. I need to know if I should leave it clamped tight the way it is before beginning the welds or try to gap it first by releasing pressure on the u bolt and allowing 1/8" gap. Anvil is marked Z177 on left foot, not sure what the Z stands for yet. Serial number A17333 I was guessing a date of 1898. I know that's probably not right. I don't own AIA yet but intend to get it soon. Any advice on this project or a correct date would be greatly appreciated. I will try to snap some pics of it out in the Sunshine soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozenforge Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I believe the Z indicated the name of the anvil maker. 1900 is a more accurate date, later Trentons were actually welded at the waist. Does it have a good ring to it? If it does you might be better off leaving it. Was it actually broken completely or was it cracked? To repair it properly you will need to groove it all the way in so you can weld all the way from the center out. If it is just cracked grind till the crack id gone then weld up. Take care to not let the heat get to the face and take the temper away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sluicebox Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 Anvil is 4 1/2" deep by 6 1/2" wide at waist where crack is. Yes it is a visible crack that I can see on all four sides. I see no separation though. It does still ring as it is, not at all like my others though. I was thinking (scary) that I could stand it on it's face and set up a recirculating 12 Volt or bigger gas powered pump to cycle a kiddie pool full of ice water(reservoir.)Water would be contained and tray covered with plywood. Could make it like a fast moving,icy river with a plywood top. Welder would not get wet. Use tempil sticks to keep an eye on temperature and don't over heat top plate. I have all kinds of pumps 1" to 4". Those welds would be pretty deep though 2 1/4", is that even possible with several passes? I could prep the anvil by removing the material half at a time. My Son would do the welding (He's good.) I was going to use that Stoody butter rod from the Gunter method as it seems to work well with Wrought Iron. Guess that I'd have to get pneumatic needle scaler for it too. I do hear many different max temps from all different people. Personally I thought top plate should not exceed 350F or temper would be lost. Others I hear say 400-500F. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 You could also do the welding over several hours, or several days, to allow cooling. The later 'welded at the waist' Trentons were not Ved out to the middle. I understand about full penetration and complete welding, but if the later welded Trentons were not done this way, why does everyone feel that this one needs to be done with full grinding to the middle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sluicebox Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 That makes perfect sense to just make several passes and not allow to over heat even if it takes days to do. No danger associated with running water. I don't know too much at all about Trentons. I thought when they were welded at the waist it was a full forge weld. I have read that some Trentons had mismatched bases due to them using what they had left on hand. So were the Later Trentons perimeter welded? If that's the case I shouldn't have to go any deeper with the grinding. Just build up the ends then remove U Bolt and grind front and back same way and weld them. That's why I was asking about starting with a gap. I was hoping that the person that did the grinding would see this thread. I never met him. The seller told me he was the Prez in NWBA but had to move back East before he could finish the repair. I have heard that this is a common break on Trentons. I don't know if it is from abuse like blasting them in the air (sad.) It seems that where they are two piece if you try breaking down heavy stock with a Striker, that would be a lot of torque at the waist. Thanks for all the input and ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 If you have a big chunk of copper, you could invert the anvil and set it on that. It would act as a big heat sink. I hope someone more familiar with arc welded Trenton anvils will chime in here and answer the question of perimeter welding vs full grind/full penetration welding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matto Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I would weld out the two ends where already ground out then stop. Leave the u bolt and enjoy the ingenuity of the previous smith. It is always amazing to see how they fixed things. It will be the only one of its kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Standing it on it's face in water would certainly help keep down the heat. You'd have to have it sitting up on some washers or scrap so the water could flow easily under the face to get the max cooling effect. I doubt you even need a circulating pump. Just monitor the temp of the anvil and stop if it starts to over heat. Water isn't as big a deal if using a DC stick welder. Divers weld underwater using DC all the time. The big trick is to make sure you don't come between the ground and the arc. Ground to the far side of the anvil and weld the near side and with some basic safety precautions like keeping your gloves dry, not welding in bare feet in a puddle, and so on you wouldn't have any issues. NEVER, I mean NEVER weld in wet conditions using AC though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sluicebox Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 Thanks for the excellent safety tip DSW. It would be DC stick. If I run two bolts through the pritchel holes and have another support under the tool plate near the horn that should keep the top plate immersed in a nice bed of water.Matto your right about the old repair on that looking neat. That took a pretty smart person to come up with that one and you can tell it was done by a Black Smith. It's amazing what those old guys could do. I see evidence of it all the time in the old mining districts. The wages of a Smith back then were only $.50 less a day than the Mill Foreman. The Smith kept them in business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Aluminum plate is cheaper than copper, and with a bit of heat sink grease would work well. Chiled aluminum plates (coolant running threw them) is used in industrial settings to selectivly quench steel. If you polish the sides of the tool steel top plate you can watch the oxide colors run. But upside down with a thick aluminum plate I doubt you could get the face up to 400F. Deap V'd waist ends (1/2 the thickness of the waist in the small demetion) would allow for relitively minimal grinding on the other faces (more of a pocket). I still think full penitration is best practice, but as stated in the thread on welded on top plates, small slag inclusions arnt such an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sluicebox Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 Thank you Mr. Stevens. I do have a thick aluminum plate, what is heat sink grease? Here are those daylight pics of the critter. After looking at in in daylight I don't think the crack goes completely through. Probably 85% though. The U bolt doesn't show signs of hammer marks so I'm guessing they did that in a large press. Likely they pressed the bolt into shape from the sides and then pressed the top down before tightening the nuts. Also shown is the serial number I still would love to get a date off of that. Thanks for all your input everyone. I just want to get this working so my Grand kids can have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I wonder if the bolt is actually a u-bolt or two L-bolts. If they go into the body an inch or so, they'd have plenty of strength to hold the pieces together. Sure a lot easier to drill two 1" deep holes and insert a couple of L-bolts. I agree with welding up the prepped ends and leaving the "fix" in place for posterity. It's a neat repair! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Heat sink grease is used between electical components and their heatsinks to increase the conductivity between the two components Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bill Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 AIA says 1900 and postman feels the "A" prefix stands for "anvil". and I agree with what Vaughn agrees with... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 It seems to be fine as is why the big push fix what is not broken? That repair is very unique and shows a ton of skill. Anybody can arc weld but there are few who can forge a U-bolt to accurate dimensions thread it and have it last for decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJS Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Build a nice metal stand for it to fit around the U-bolt and let it ride... If the crack gets a lot worse, then fix it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sluicebox Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 Thanks everyone, that's what we will do. Weld up what has been ground out and leave it be. No light shines through hole so probably L bolts as mentioned above. I have some of that nasty heat sink grease that wont wash off no matter what you do. Will post pics after repaired. Thanks for all the input everyone. Glad I didn't cut out that bolt. Best to you all. PS that repair was started before I acquired it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L Smith Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Time is always on your side of the equation. Most rushed repairs end in failure. Experience after the fact says I coulda done better if only.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Nasty stuff, heatsink grease, lol. Ive seen industrial quench plates with colant paseged drilled threw them, taped and plumed to pump water. Don't imagine much problems with steam pockets, lol. I bet the blocks for cooling soda pop in ice buckets for soda fountains would work well on smaller peices. Let me say, an aluminum pan seting on a cooling rack (or the top of a cold stove) will thaw steak almost as fast as a microwave. No cooked edges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Let me say, an aluminum pan seting on a cooling rack (or the top of a cold stove) will thaw steak almost as fast as a microwave. No cooked edges. That's a useful bit of trivia. I may have to try that. My microwave cooks everything on defrost. ( I can't complain too much, it's over 20 years old and still going strong). It does make it a pain when I forget to put the meat out to thaw before work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Aluminum is usefull stuff. Reflects 98% of radient heat (painting camp cookware with stove enamal or hightemp exaust paint overcomes that) this what makes aluminum heat shields and space blankets work, thou aluminumoxidw is .8% less efficient. And its one o the best conductors, thats why its good cookware and heat sinks. I use a comecial 1/2 sheat cake pan, as its nice and thick, and fits in my oven. (Oven light and varmet resistant) to thaw steaks and chops) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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