lawman Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Hi guys, This is my first post on here. Had a question that I have not found a really good answer to from searching, though I'm sure its been covered many times. For some reason my computer doesn't play well with this site on searching. Anyway........I have been setting up my shop for a while and decided that I finally needed a power hammer. The shop is pretty well stocked, I got most of the stuff I need / want. Nimba Titan anvil, post vise, good assortment of tongs and hammers, Bending jigs, gas and coal forges, welding machines .....the whole 9 yards. I just ordered a new Iron Kiss 50 to add to the assortment and hopefully I will have it by the end of the summer. I am a Hobby guy. I make Knives, fire pokers, steak flippers......trinket stuff really. I have at this point not really sold any of the things that I make but I have a lot of friends that got some pretty cool stuff made out of twisted up iron. I enjoy it and the stress relief it brings and could see myself doing it a little on the side. A power hammer will make that way easier taking something that would take me a couple of hours down to 15 or 20 min. To the reason I started this thread. This is my first power hammer, so I have limited power hammer knowledge and very little tooling set up for it. I ordered my new hammer with a set of combination dies, a set of flat dies with holes drilled thru them for bolt on attachments, and a Hardy saddle. asside from that I don't plan on buying anything else. Im going to make it. I was going to start off with a round back flatter, a cut off tool, a couple of tong making tools and then some spring swages. After that I will just make a tool as the need arises. My question is what type of material should these be made out of? I am assuming that I can make stuff like the flatter out of a piece of spring steel, maybe even mild steel bar stock. But for cutting tools under a power hammer is pieces of an old car spring Ok for that or do I need to use tool steel, maybe a old lawn mower blade. I have a good Idea how to make every thing that I have come up with so far just not sure on the material selection. I am not opposed to buying tool steel bar stock when it is necessary but for the relativly light forging that I see myself doing I'm not sure it is needed. I like the Idea of making stuff from recycled material when it is feasable. Forgive me if the question seems simple to some. I don't consider myself a beginner but have had very little opprotunity to interact with other smiths. What I know I mostly taught myself. Experience has taught me that I have on occation taught myself the wrong things, and in this area I know my knowledge is lacking. Thanks for the input. Lawman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Frog Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 PM me your email, I'll send you a nice article on all sorts of power hammer tooling can make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 PM me your email, I'll send you a nice article on all sorts of power hammer tooling can make. Why not share it with everybody? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJS Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 You can use fancy tool steels, but most industrial smiths stick with simpler steels for struck tools. 4140,1050,5160... So you can use axils, and springs instead of buying new. Depending on where you are there might be a steel supplier who specializes in drops that sells cut pieces of steel.. If you can get videos of conferences from your local group look for ones with Clifton Ralph, Steve Parker, Kurt Farenbach... All flat open die industrial blacksmiths. As far as books Lilico shows some very cool process illustrations of how to forge locomotive parts under a steam hammer;-) gives you a wonderful appreciation for volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Frog Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Why not share it with everybody? I will, just PM me for the pdf file. I don't know if I'm allowed to post it here..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Hi guys, This is my first post on here. Had a question that I have not found a really good answer to from searching, though I'm sure its been covered many times. For some reason my computer doesn't play well with this site on searching. Anyway........I have been setting up my shop for a while and decided that I finally needed a power hammer. The shop is pretty well stocked, I got most of the stuff I need / want. Nimba Titan anvil, post vise, good assortment of tongs and hammers, Bending jigs, gas and coal forges, welding machines .....the whole 9 yards. I just ordered a new Iron Kiss 50 to add to the assortment and hopefully I will have it by the end of the summer. I am a Hobby guy. I make Knives, fire pokers, steak flippers......trinket stuff really. I have at this point not really sold any of the things that I make but I have a lot of friends that got some pretty cool stuff made out of twisted up iron. I enjoy it and the stress relief it brings and could see myself doing it a little on the side. A power hammer will make that way easier taking something that would take me a couple of hours down to 15 or 20 min. To the reason I started this thread. This is my first power hammer, so I have limited power hammer knowledge and very little tooling set up for it. I ordered my new hammer with a set of combination dies, a set of flat dies with holes drilled thru them for bolt on attachments, and a Hardy saddle. asside from that I don't plan on buying anything else. Im going to make it. I was going to start off with a round back flatter, a cut off tool, a couple of tong making tools and then some spring swages. After that I will just make a tool as the need arises. My question is what type of material should these be made out of? I am assuming that I can make stuff like the flatter out of a piece of spring steel, maybe even mild steel bar stock. But for cutting tools under a power hammer is pieces of an old car spring Ok for that or do I need to use tool steel, maybe a old lawn mower blade. I have a good Idea how to make every thing that I have come up with so far just not sure on the material selection. I am not opposed to buying tool steel bar stock when it is necessary but for the relativly light forging that I see myself doing I'm not sure it is needed. I like the Idea of making stuff from recycled material when it is feasable. Forgive me if the question seems simple to some. I don't consider myself a beginner but have had very little opprotunity to interact with other smiths. What I know I mostly taught myself. Experience has taught me that I have on occation taught myself the wrong things, and in this area I know my knowledge is lacking. Thanks for the input. Lawman Welcome. This is is having growing pains at the moment. Regardless, the best way to search this or any site is with google. Here is what I typed; power hammer tooling iforgeiron this was the first hit '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>> I happen to know this fellow quite well, he knows his stuff about power hammer dies. He says mild steel for this particular tool. The whole rest of the search page were all hits here, I figured to just get you started. It seems most of the dies we made were 4140 or some other high molly steel. Jack hammer bits are good stock, I can tell you that, also truck axles, steering components, sucker rod, coil springs. Ideally S-7 or H-13 would be great or most any other air hardening stock. Lots of tools are made from 1045 but I would go 1060 or 1070 given a choice. Happy hunting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I will, just PM me for the pdf file. I don't know if I'm allowed to post it here..... Make the post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawman Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 On 1/28/2015 at 8:47 PM, arftist said: the best way to search this or any site is with google. thanks for the advice........i'll try that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GottMitUns Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Black Frog, I'm in the same spot at lawman, my big blu 110 should arrive in the morning :D. I have sent you a PM with my e-mail, could you please send me the article also? Thank you Russell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wpearson Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 clay spencer's pdf here http://www.alaforge.org/files/Tire_Hammer_Tools_small.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Frog Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Wpearson posted the same article that I have in the above post. Good stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawman Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 clay spencer's pdf here http://www.alaforge.org/files/Tire_Hammer_Tools_small.pdf now thats helpful....... I think I can use that. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJS Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 A lot of the tooling in the industrial shops if it was hardened at all was tempered back nearly to 1000, part of the time they would just normalize and use that. The reason behind this is they didn't want it to fatigue in use and blow up in their faces, and you didn't want it to damage the dies on the hammer. They wanted those big ol flat dies to stay nice and flat! with maybe a slight hollow in the sweet spot from wear. They didn't want the flat dies turned into texturing dies. Fancy air hardening tools made from S7 and H13 can damage your dies. Using simpler steels for most things is safer, most of the tools you will make, it isn't imperative that they out last you. If you have to reforge, or remake a paddle, some other tool, its better than having a "Superior" tool explode in your face, or damage your hammer! I love S7 and H13, and I use it A LOT. BUT you need to be careful with it, the struck ends can spal, especially if you beat on it with a hammer with a hardened face... ie most of our good forging hammers! Plus you will scar your forging hammer, unless you can differentially harden your air hardening tools ( which is possible, but not easy... You can also design the tools so you have a milder backing steel that gets struck, welded to the air hardened steel. You have to use the right rods, (Harris Missile weld is a decent choice...) and good technique. Done correctly these tools can last a long time, and can be rebuilt and last even longer... You have to inspect them frequently and when there is signs of cracking in the weld and the striking pad, its time to rebuild it... I have chisels made from S7 that I have cut 100s of feet of steel with, (I do A LOT of designs with split work...) But I ALWAYS use a copper hammer to drive them... (After an unfortunate incident where I was using a forging hammer on a running cutter, and it spalled at a demo, a little boy in the front row caught a very small piece of the S7... THANKFULLY they didn't make a big deal about it, but I wont use anything but a soft faced hammer on air hardened steel now... I would like to keep my house and my kit, and I felt bad, and would feel even worse if someone lost an eye because I wasn't smart enough to take ALL of the proper precautions... Remember wisdom is the ability to learn from someone else's mistakes, WITHOUT having to make them yourself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Most tools that I use under my hammer are either 5160 (or similar) or mild steel. If 5160 I forge and air cool then use without heat treatment. For hacks I do use H13 but, and this is very important, using a hardened tool steel under the hammer is significantly risky. If you use a hack taller than your work piece you can drive the tool into the bottom die. This will result in damage to either the dies, the tool or both and could involve shard of tools steel flying around your shop. For your size of hammer and the size of work it will handle, I'd suggest sticking with the 5160/car spring/axle suggestions. They will wear out faster, but they are less risky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I'll add to this, make sure you warm all tools before using them under a hammer, especially in winter. Cold+tool steels (even alloy and carbon steel)=brittle. This top of this little sucker (H13) took off across the shop early one morning, but it kissed my arm as it went past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I always thought I was taught "Never Strike a Hardened Tool with a Hammer". Hand or Otherwise!! I know of a well known Blacksmith who tried to make Power Hammer Tools with old Bearing races. He made one, It exploded and a piece went into his arm. He never made two!!!!! He is no longer with us, but he was lucky enough to have survived the "unaimed Bullet" It is safer to make a die, to reshape your power hammer tools when they get deformed with years of abuse/use (whichever applies) :) :) . Plan ahead. Be Safe. Don't listen to the Tax Man (You have to make more money). Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Found the photos of my little punch episode. We still have'nt found the top part of the punch, we know it hit the wall about 20 feet from the hammer, where it went from there, is anyone guess. The cause, punch made of hard material, cold morning with cold water in the quench tub and a new guy who didn't know what it is made from who quenched it out in water instead of oil between heats. Could have been nasty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJS Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Hopefully the sight of a little blood will keep everyone honest... Just because it hasn't killed you (or someone else) yet, doesn't mean it wont!!! Being stupid is 100% fatal, with some people it just takes longer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Hopefully the sight of a little blood will keep everyone honest... Just because it hasn't killed you (or someone else) yet, doesn't mean it wont!!! Being stupid is 100% fatal, with some people it just takes longer... Hmm, seems like your stupidity wasn't fatal to the little boy. Thank God. Speaking of honesty, what did the struck end of your running cutter look like? Not mushroomed of course...end well trimmed and beveled? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Sometimes unhardened H13 will work harden and the hard cap will work off, even if you keep the top edges well dressed. That said for tools I use an assortment of materials H13, S7, 4140, junk steel (axels, springs, tie rods, what ever) and for some very detailed dies mild steel as to get that detailing into tool steel is too difficult with my lack of tools or skills. Like has been said it is very important to keep your tools softer than your dies. If I plan to harden the tool I start with a known steel. Tools like the round back flatter I would not harden and then I will likely use junk steel, also on a hack, I do differencially harden a lot more tools than I used to just so they will hold up longer, I am not sure that this is an idea that is for good for others, but it is what I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathsonn Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 On 1/29/2015 at 12:47 PM, Black Frog said: I will, just PM me for the pdf file. I don't know if I'm allowed to post it here..... Hi Black Frog, I have purchased a power hammer andwant to make my own tooling. Have seen your post and hope you could send me your .pdf file. Would be gratefully appreciated. Cathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 Black Frog hasn't visited the forum since January 5, 2022. You might try sending him a DM, but don't get your hopes up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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