bvbaird Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I have been practicing on leaves but the stems keep breaking off. What is the problem. I can't keep cracks from happening. Am I working the steel too cold? Am I getting the steel too hot? Do I have too much impurities in my fire? I can't seem to get the small stuff to stop cracking and breaking off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 what are you using as stock? What kind of forge do you use? How much experience forging do you have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 To cold and necking the stem/to leaf area to small. Always work it hot or as it cools your hammer hits will cause a slight vibration and crack at the weakest point (neck or stem) next to the leaf. We've all been there. Do 75 leaves and you'll notice you wont have that problem again - or at least not as often. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 What they said.... Make sure that none of your forging tools have sharp edges, hammers, anvils, butchers, even a hot set works best with a fine radius. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvbaird Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 I am just starting and have a coal forge but I just found out I need to strain the coal and get the dust out. I have a lot of dust in my fire now. I will start sifting it from now on. I use any steel I can find and the last two leaves I tried with rebar. I shop at work for any steel and go to the scrap yard and pick up anything I can use. The last bottle opener I made kept cracking and finally broke off as well. I was making it from a 1" round bar. I keep getting the same results from any steel I use. I guess practice is the answer. One more question ya'll might know was I kept trying to save my bottle opener by stick welding but there seemed to be too many impurities in the steel. It just kept cracking and falling apart outside the welds. Could that be from the coal dust in my fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Not from the coal dust. Lose the re-bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvbaird Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 I use the rebar to practice hammer strikes. I am still all over the place with my hammer. I still have the same problem with what I would call good steel. I think maybe it is working too cold. I am outside and I tend to keep hammering after I loose color. I think I will move to the shop so I can see my steel color better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Buying some new small round or square hot rolled steel stock is very inexpensive. You would probably better off using a know material even while you are learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausfire Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 If you're picking up old steel from the scrapyard for your leaves you may find it's wrought iron, and that will tend to crack when you come to draw out fine stems. I have done leaves from 3/8 wrought, but it's not easy and you have to have the material hot and be vigilant. Don't hammer it without good colour. I agree with anvilman ... get yourself some 6, 8 or 10mm round stock from your supplier and make leaves easily. At least then you'll know if it doesn't happen, it's your technique and not the steel. Eliminate the variables! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 HAZ cracking is usually due to welding on high carbon steel without proper preheat and post heat/slow cool. Dust has NOTHING TO DO with anything. I buy my coal as dust and store it in a bucket of water and apply it as sludge to the fire. Now you can have cinders and fly ash that would cause problems but that's not coal dust! I will go one step further and suggest you go buy some real mild steel---1018 or lower! It will be much less prone to cracking than rebar/hot rolled/??? steel and far cheaper too as you will save hundreds of dollars in time and frustration and objects that can't be sold or used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJS Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Don't FORGE under a red heat, you can planish, and break corners, but don't try to seriously move the stock if it is at red. You loose color around 900 -1000. You want to be starting around a bright orange to yellow for mild steel. Yellow to white for Wrought Iron, and a nice bright orange for any high carbon or high alloy steel that might be hot short, and for the wrought and the tool steel stop at a bright red -dull orange. I have seen a lot of people pull out the steel to start hitting it at temps I try to throw it back in the fire (not always good about that, but I know better;-) You might also be soaking at too high a heat... If you soak the metal too long you will get grain growth and be much more likely to crack things off at a sharp shoulder where there is always a stress riser. You can also run into cracking crumbling problems if the thin stem gets over heated and burned it can crumble and crack... Fire control is a crucial skill to develop, just pay close attention to how hot your getting things. Go gently as you get close to your forging heat, there is a fine line between a nice warm yellow forging heat, and a white sparking I just ruined this piece heat!!! Thinner cross sections get hotter faster learn to locate the thicker part of the stock directly over an air blast in the fire, and keep the thinner sections out of the blast let them soak it up from the larger section... Rebar is better than nothing, but not much;-) cold rolled 1018 tends to be more forgiving and more predicable, not to mention softer at heat. Rebar is generally remelted junk, and tends to be harder to forge and potentially a problem if you quench it... Who knows what alloys and carbon level is in the bar at the point where you are quenching it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 "....the smaller I get." The title of this thread mad me think of the movie "The Incredible Shrinking Man" I kept envisioning a blacksmith that was getting smaller and smaller :D Sorry, I got nothin' else :ph34r: Scott :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickOHH Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 i had the same problem tryin them with rebar, it can be done, and not a bad option for how cheap rebar is, i still use iit for make leaf keychains because i can make 20 of them for 2 bucks, but be prepared to lose a few due to cracks, if you keep using the rebar, work it really hot yellow to bright orange heat as soon as it cools at all heat again and it will help with cracking, but rebar doesnt have the same standards for quality as other metal unless you get it from a rebar manufacturer that specializes in it but then your not getting it as cheap anyway, best of luck keep at it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I think the problem COULD BE grain growth from repeated heating... rather than working too cold. I have had this happen! Prevent it by working the leaf down before final thinning of the stem, working in as few heats as possible, removing the work from the fire promptly. In most cases where I have actually had a leaf break off I also worked nearby areas for several heats... the leaf stem slowly weakened and finally broke away. Wiser now I'd be careful to avoid too much thinning of the leaf stem until most other work was completed. A work flow error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacob Nothstine Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 If the 1" round was high carbon steel and you quenchant it in water, it could become brittle and can crack or break. I have made this mistake a few times. You can do a spark test to get an idea if it's high carbon. search high carbon steel spark test online. It would also be a pain to weld. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 My first guess would be cold shuts, especially with a beginner. More practice to gain hammer control, and be careful not to work on too sharp an edge or pinch material off the nape of the neck by hammering too close to the leaf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvbaird Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 This is a very fun hobby. I knew I wouldn't be perfect right off but I never realized that temp control would be the hardest part for me. I can't tell you how many times I have burned a piece off after having put in a lot of time working it. I am now constantly checking the piece and then I turn my back to set up for the next hits and sparks are flying when I turn back around. Another one lost. I got a leaf about 95% yesterday before the stem cracked off. This time I believe I caused it by hitting on a sharp corner with a bad hammer strike. I saw the crack start there after I started thinning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L Smith Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 An old blacksmith told me on leaves an appropriate file is your friend. And he was right when I did my next set of leaves. Francis Whitiker was his name Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caintuckrifle Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I have seen time and time again that many beginners are not heating their work nearly as hot as it needs to be, this causes cracks, stresses, and all sorts of other problems (not to mention more works for the smith. This is often due to an insufficient forge or a lack of experience or knowledge. Dull red is not forging temperature! Dull red means it is time to put the piece back in the forge. Don't be afraid to get it hot, then make sure you quit early enough, it's not that hard to reheat. If you do work until its too cold, it just takes longer to bring it back up to temperature, and can cause all the problems previously mentioned. Just make sure it does not get too hot and burn. Just go to You-Tube and you will see many beginning smiths working steel that is way to cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Coal dust is not a bad thing. I slurry mine like ThomasPowers does. Sounds like there may be several things going on here. Do you wet and pack the outer coal down so it will coke, or do you just let the fire burn? How much air blast are you using,and what kind of blower? Pictures of your forge, anvil, tools being used? What steps are you taking to make a leaf? Walk us through one as you would make it. You mentioned poor hammer control, so let's try this first. Take some rebar, and forge the end square, thèn round again,then square again, repeating this until you get consistent results. Next exercise will be taking a piece of rebar, and tapering it. Do them in round, and square tapers. For drawing out material you will probably want to get something other than rebar. But the process is the same in learning hammer control...practice, practice, practice. Trying to make something like a leaf with thin sections will be tough when you are all over the place with the hammer. Plan your strikes ahead of time. Do not pull it out of the fire, and then try to decide where you are going to hit it--As the saying goes, strike while the iron is hot. I know you want to start making things now, but the basics need to be learned first. The round,square, and tapering exercises will help you get there. Later you may be able to use the practice pieces to make something else with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 You may want to see if there are any smiths, or classes in your area. Having someone with experience standing next to you will save TONS of time when learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 All of the above is good advice. There is another thing to consider that can cause rapid cooling of small forgings when forging in a cold environment . If your anvil is cold the small forging will cool to below forging temperature very quickly The anvil will suck the heat out on contact. When forging during cold spells pre-heat your anvil . There are a lot of posts discussing pre-heating your anvil . If forging only small pieces in a cold environment , like leaves, it could take hours before your anvil warms to a decent working temperature without pre-heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvbaird Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 I will try to get pictures of my equipment. I'm not the best on computer. I may even be the last human alive that doesn't have a cell phone. My forge is homemade from 3/8 steel. The size is about 5" deep with the bottom being about 8" by 5" and the top being about 12" by 10". I have another piece of 3/8 that I cut slots in that I lay in the bottom. The blower I got from Granger I think and I really can't remember the output but it blows very well and I welded a gate valve to cut the flow. I have an old Fisher anvil that is maybe about 80# in rough shape and then I have a homemade railroad track that I welded a 1.5" steel bind on top and torched the sides off. It may be around 100#. I haven't been wetting my coal but I will start. I have been putting water on my fire to control the heat to a smaller area. I will get some new sreel and start working on it again in another week or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I typically forge the stem down some, make the leaf, and then go back and draw the stem out smaller to leave a little mass there during the leaf making process. Definitely don't forge cold, that's what usually breaks the stem off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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