Anvil Weight vs Hammer Weight Question

[LibrariaNPC]

Here's an odd question, and I'm not certain if what I'm seeing is due to lack of skill/experience or my odd tool setup.

My anvil is a cheap 55lb anvil from Harbor Freight mounted to a single 4x6, cut down and bolted together into a stand. It probably weighs closer to 100lbs, but it's hard to tell.

 

While working with a bit of 1048 yesterday, I noticed I wasn't getting as much rebound with my 3lb cross pien hammer, but my 2lb ball pien was getting a really good bounce. Is there something within the physics of having a heavy hammer and lighter anvil not getting a good rebound, or is it my lack of experience showing?

 

I've attached a photo of my anvil with stand (prior to bolting it) if that helps at all.

 

Thanks for any input!

[dablacksmith]

first problem... hf anvil shaped scrap metal...probably what was going on is that the 2 lb ball pien hammer was bounceing of the steel your were forging and not transfering much of the blow thru to rebound off the anvil. the 3 lb hammer being heavyer hits harder so does not bounce off the steel being forged .You are getting more work done with the heavyer hammer but ...you need a better anvil .. one with a hard face ...even a unhardened chunk of 4140 would work better...

[Black Frog]

Any anvil is better than no anvil, but that is about the worst "anvil" you could be using.  Soft cast iron junk (sorry).

You'd be better off with a block of steel from the salvage yard.

 

That said, you have to look at the mass under your hammer vs the hammer itself. 

For every action there is a reaction.  The heavier the hammer, the more the anvil will want to move under that force.

 

Imagine using a huge hammer on a tiny anvil, the hammer is going to win with its greater mass and inertia compared to a small, light anvil.

And if you're using an anvil that is soft (HF junk), the energy from your hammer blow will tend to be absorbed by the anvil rather than being transferred into the work like it would with a proper hardface anvil having good rebound.  If your anvil isn't secured well to its stand, some of your hammer energy will go toward that anvil moving and bouncing on the stand.  If your stand is not on hard ground or firmly mounted, some of your hammer energy will go toward that stand moving as well.

 

You have a finite amount of energy when you swing a hammer of a certain weight and speed.  You want to try to focus the greatest amount of that finite energy into your work that you can.  Soft anvils, poor mounting, etc, all rob some of your energy from going into your work.  Imagine trying to forge metal on a soft pillow....  you might still be swinging the same hammer, but very little of the energy goes into the work.

 

A good anvil with hard face, firmly mounted on a good stand which is placed on a hard floor or anchored well will make a world of difference.

[LibrariaNPC]

Thanks for the input on this!

 

I went with the HF due to cost (just getting started, and my day job doesn't make enough to buy everything outright) and a suggestion from a local smith I spoke to (which was: get a cheap anvil that you won't be upset if you chip). There's also the issue of space; I need to make sure I can haul everything in and out of my apartment myself and make it FIT into said apartment, so I can't really go for the bigger anvils just yet.

 

If there's a suggested way of making this usable, or if there's a suggestion on a smaller, affordable anvil (I'm already 2k in the hole, not including class cost, with nothing to show for it), I'm all ears.

[Black Frog]

$2k in the hole?  On what? 

You can be forging with a home-made forge, scrap yard anvil, and flea market hammers for easily under a few hundred.

 

Doesn't look like your anvil is secured to the base.  That would be the first thing I would do, besides heading to the salvage yard looking for a block of steel of some sort.

Once you get up to speed, you can make and sell things to pay for a better anvil. A good anvil is a tool worth investing in.  

 

If you buy a real anvil (a quality anvil) you'll most likely always be able to get the money spent back out of it if you want to upgrade to something better/bigger down the road.

Keep an eye on your local CL for anvils.  If a deal comes up, you should be ready with cash in hand at a moment's notice.  Good deals are gone instantly.

 

The ballpark 100-125# range of anvil is by far the most popular to still be found.  Every farm had one. 

They were large enough to do lots of work, yet small enough to still be considered "portable" for one person.

 

That is not saying you can't do work on a makeshift anvil from a chunk of steel.  Plenty of great work has been done on a simple chunk of railroad track.

[ThomasPowers]

Where did the money go? I had my first triphammer before I was even up to $1K!

I once assembled a complete beginner's set up for under US$25. My local scrapyard has 8"x8"x4" chunks of steel that come out to be about 72 pounds and under $15 which make a decent anvil. The HF ASO does give you a place for hardy tools.

I suggest folks getting started in places where getting scrap is difficult look into a heavy machinery repair place---like dozers for chunks of good steel or use a damaged forklift tine, they can't reuse them for liability reasons and if you explain what you want it for and "pay" for them to cut it so it can't be re-used you can often get them for scrap rate. (or even free)

Forging out of an apartment: small bean can gas forge---does your apartment have a place you could put a gas grill? They make great hiding places for gas forges, even a propane tank sitting underneath it looks "ok"...a few sets of tongs and 3 hammers and a handful of hardy tools will get you pretty well along.

I get most of my hammers at the flea markets; I don't pay over $5 save for very special ones---the broad arrow marked British WWII straight peen sledge I did go to $10.

When I lived in the city I had a "ornamental iron" shop that would let me come in during lunch and go through their scrap bin---they had to pay to have it hauled off and I left it substantially less full and more organized. Lots of good mild steel for starting out projects and every once in a while some real wrought iron. I'd make some trinkets for the office in return.

Actually can you explain what kind of smithing you want to do we might be able to make more accurate suggestions...

[LibrariaNPC]

To answer the questions:

 

Types of Smithing: My first class was a bladesmithing class (knives), so I'm starting there. I'm also looking at making just about anything, really. For example, my aunt is really big into the colonial era, so she's asked for things like hooks, candle holders, etc, that are fitting for the era. 

 

Apartment Limits: I live in a "two bedroom" apartment that spans maybe 800 square feet (if you are generous) with my wife and cat. Thankfully it is a first floor apartment, so I can get outside easily, but there's nowhere to do metalwork inside (i.e. carpeted floors, no basement, etc).

I have ZERO outside storage space (no garage, shed, etc), and leaving anything outside is bound to get stolen (we chain our charcoal grill to our steps; someone stole the cover and left the grill o_O). If you don't know about Camden, NJ, let's just say it is arguably the worst city in NJ, and it's right down the road from me.

 

 

Where did the money go: I'm glad to know the sum got that kind of reaction; if my wife didn't see it all happen over time with her own eyes, she would have murdered me. It's not an exact figure, but it's pretty close right now.

 

First, I started off by trying to build my own forge. $300+ and a month later, I still didn't have a proper, safely working forge (two fell apart, one is intact but too small, and one was a total failure). I did leave with a functional burner with regulator, two torches (useless for what I need), and some tools. The tools and trappings (screws, drill bits, etc) also added to this list.

I honestly spent about $150 on JUST torches/burners, as I was trying to make builds based on what I've read about (like in Goddard's $50 knife shop).

 

After the massive failures and nothing to show for it, I caved and bought a Diamondback 2 burner blacksmith forge. After shipping and choke plates, that was a good $500+, right there. I then went out and bought two refillable 20lb propane tanks and had them filled at the local BJs; that was about $85 that day.

 

As you can see, almost half of what I spent went into getting a forge, and I'm STILL not quite done as I need to find some firebrick to keep my table from burning (again)

 

Second, I had to start getting actual tools. I started with nothing except a ratchet set and a cheap claw hammer. A number of the tools I picked up cheap (Harbor Freight), but anything that needed power had to be cordless (nowhere to plug in outside). Getting a decent angle grinder that was cordless ended up setting me back over $200; this is thankfully acting as my cutter, sander and buffer, so it's well worth it! Instead of a drill press I went with a cordless drill. I also needed the other essentials, such as tongs, so I did an order for those.

 

Third, I needed a workspace to mount the anvil, vice, etc and to generally hold things as I work. I went out with my uncle, bought some wood and built a small work table (24" x 16" if memory serves correctly) and the anvil stand I have pictured here.

 

Finally, materials have only cost $120, as I did an order from the NJ Steel Baron for the same types of steel I used during my bladesmithing class and threw some cash to a friend who handed me a pile of railroad spikes.

 

So that's how I dropped about 2k on blacksmithing, not including my classes >_>

[Black Frog]

Appreciate the clarification.  You're all set on the forge, and the anvil stand looks quite serviceable.

 

I'd be figuring a way to firmly attach anvil (or steel block) to your stand, and do it in a way that lets you remove it for easy moving.    If you're going to keep using the HF anvil you could easily put in two lag screws with washers on two opposite corners of the anvil feet.  Slightly loosen them and you can rotate the anvil out of position for transport. 

 

Or look at getting a cheapo hand truck and leave the anvil attached to the stand, saves your back from hauling it around.

[LibrariaNPC]

Now, for the rest of things!

 

Doesn't look like your anvil is secured to the base.  That would be the first thing I would do, besides heading to the salvage yard looking for a block of steel of some sort.

 

As noted previously, I didn't have the anvil mounted when I snapped this photo; this was taken after I built the stand, but didn't have the bolts to mount it at that time. It is mounted by this point.

 

As for the scrapyards, I've been calling around the local yards asking if they sell as well as buy scrap, but they aren't returning my calls/e-mails, so I've been playing the waiting game there.

 

 

Once you get up to speed, you can make and sell things to pay for a better anvil. A good anvil is a tool worth investing in.  

 

If you buy a real anvil (a quality anvil) you'll most likely always be able to get the money spent back out of it if you want to upgrade to something better/bigger down the road.

Keep an eye on your local CL for anvils.  If a deal comes up, you should be ready with cash in hand at a moment's notice.  Good deals are gone instantly.

 

That's part of the goal, honestly. A few friends have offered to help sell my work at the conventions they attend (one friend is a gemcutter and has offered to do stone hilts and sell for me), and I have some contacts with the local historic society that offered to help me reach an audience for sales. . .once I get to that point, of course.

 

Craigslist has been a wasteland for me with anvils, as the nearest ones involve crossing state lines with $600+ in hand for a 110 lb anvil. A recent one is 150 lbs for $400, but it looks a bit beat.

 

 

 

That is not saying you can't do work on a makeshift anvil from a chunk of steel.  Plenty of great work has been done on a simple chunk of railroad track.

 

I was looking into railroad track to use, but I haven't had much luck there, either. I also don't have welding experience or tools, so I'm not sure how well that will go.

 

One option that has come up as an alternative is to go with a stump or stake anvil and attach it to my stand as-is. I just don't know how well it will work in the end, but it is cheaper than the alternatives; a smith I know swears by Otto Frei anvils as being affordable and decent quality, but even that's a bit steep.

 

 

Forging out of an apartment: small bean can gas forge---does your apartment have a place you could put a gas grill? They make great hiding places for gas forges, even a propane tank sitting underneath it looks "ok"...a few sets of tongs and 3 hammers and a handful of hardy tools will get you pretty well along.

 

I was tempted to start with the bean can forge, but after reading Goddard's $50 Knife Shop, I thought working with the brick forges might be better with my goals, which is why I went that route.

Sadly, setting the forge outside is a Bad Idea (see my previous post).

 

 

I get most of my hammers at the flea markets; I don't pay over $5 save for very special ones---the broad arrow marked British WWII straight peen sledge I did go to $10.

When I lived in the city I had a "ornamental iron" shop that would let me come in during lunch and go through their scrap bin---they had to pay to have it hauled off and I left it substantially less full and more organized. Lots of good mild steel for starting out projects and every once in a while some real wrought iron. I'd make some trinkets for the office in return.

 

I've been trying to find a few local places like that, but haven't had any luck. Being in the middle of winter surely doesn't help, and I am on a bit of a timeline, so. . .

 

I'll keep that in mind about the iron shops. I think there are a few around here, so I'll start calling around. Thanks!

[LibrariaNPC]

Appreciate the clarification.  You're all set on the forge, and the anvil stand looks quite serviceable.

 

I'd be figuring a way to firmly attach anvil (or steel block) to your stand, and do it in a way that lets you remove it for easy moving.    If you're going to keep using the HF anvil you could easily put in two lag screws with washers on two opposite corners of the anvil feet.  Slightly loosen them and you can rotate the anvil out of position for transport. 

 

Or look at getting a cheapo hand truck and leave the anvil attached to the stand, saves your back from hauling it around.

 

I'm really enjoying the forge, honestly. It singed my table a bit when I fired it up yesterday, so I'm trying to find some hard fireplace brick. No luck this morning, so I'll be calling around tomorrow to try my luck. Hopefully if the weather holds, I can be out forging tomorrow.

 

Currently, I have four lag screws with washers holding this anvil in place. I currently carry it outside by the anvil, and I can confidently say that it isn't going anywhere. If I go with a bigger anvil, I may have to go with a hand truck...and find a place to store it. Heh.

[ForgeMan32]

Well sometimes small hardware stores will carry firebricks but ive not been able to find them at lowes or H D but I did actually find some at ace hardware if you have any places like that and I'm not advertising for them , just saying if in a crunch

[LibrariaNPC]

Well sometimes small hardware stores will carry firebricks but ive not been able to find them at lowes or H D but I did actually find some at ace hardware if you have any places like that and I'm not advertising for them , just saying if in a crunch

 

Supposedly the local Tractor Supply Store has them, so I'll be running out there in the AM to pick some up. If not, I'll try ACE since there is one nearby. Thanks!

[DSW]

Fizzano's Block sells regular fire bricks as well as fire clay in bags if you need it. They have a number of locations in the area. Not sure about across the bridge or not. The one I went to  for fire bricks and clay is in Feasterville Pa, but I know they have several other locations, the only other one I've personally been to is in Exton.

 

I'd check masonry supply houses if you can't locate fire bricks easily else where. If you were closer I'd offer to sell you some I have, since I'm not using them any more.

[billyO]

I'd suggest joining your local blacksmithing organization.  Local smiths will know where to go to get stuff, and I've yet to meet a smith who wasn't helpful in some way.

[LibrariaNPC]

I'd suggest joining your local blacksmithing organization.  Local smiths will know where to go to get stuff, and I've yet to meet a smith who wasn't helpful in some way.

 

Already joined, just waiting for the schedule of meetings for the NJ group and hoping the weather stays clear enough to attend next month's meeting in PA.

[SJS]

Let people know you are interested, and you are always looking for blacksmithing tools (EVERYONE you meet should know you are looking.) Be friendly and enthusiastic (generally not hard;-).  Most of the leads won't pan out, but eventually you will get lucky. Don't sweat the HF anvil, it is better than nothing and it has a hardie hole;-)  and if you damage it, it wasn't a valuable heirloom anvil. It is likely that in your area the scrap yards are CLOSED to outside sales, there may be a way to get stuff, but calling the front office isn't it...  A steel table doesn't catch fire, and you don't need fire brick.  Repurpose things, think outside the box.  Don't fall prey to functional fixedness. You could bolt the forge to a handtruck and leave the cylinder on the truck as ballast to keep the forge from overbalancing it. Steel rolling tool cart from HF would work and be cheap... but it would be even cheaper if you found it at Goodwill or a thirft store...   You need enough convergent thinking to recognize the rules and enough divergent thinking to know when you can break the rules;-) Build your paradigm, I imagine your good at reading;-) develop a plan and work to build your skills in a disciplined fashion. If you are diligent enough you will get the skills and then tools aren't as much of a limitation...  There are no shortcuts, but a good guide can speed your trip, but you still have to put in a lot of work to get where you are going.  Have fun 

[LibrariaNPC]

Let people know you are interested, and you are always looking for blacksmithing tools (EVERYONE you meet should know you are looking.) Be friendly and enthusiastic (generally not hard;-).  Most of the leads won't pan out, but eventually you will get lucky. Don't sweat the HF anvil, it is better than nothing and it has a hardie hole;-)  and if you damage it, it wasn't a valuable heirloom anvil. It is likely that in your area the scrap yards are CLOSED to outside sales, there may be a way to get stuff, but calling the front office isn't it...  A steel table doesn't catch fire, and you don't need fire brick.  Repurpose things, think outside the box.  Don't fall prey to functional fixedness. You could bolt the forge to a handtruck and leave the cylinder on the truck as ballast to keep the forge from overbalancing it. Steel rolling tool cart from HF would work and be cheap... but it would be even cheaper if you found it at Goodwill or a thirft store...   You need enough convergent thinking to recognize the rules and enough divergent thinking to know when you can break the rules;-) Build your paradigm, I imagine your good at reading;-) develop a plan and work to build your skills in a disciplined fashion. If you are diligent enough you will get the skills and then tools aren't as much of a limitation...  There are no shortcuts, but a good guide can speed your trip, but you still have to put in a lot of work to get where you are going.  Have fun 

 

The enthusiasm isn't hard at all, and you are right: I do a good bit of reading, but experience has been trumping my research lately. 

 

My issue with working "outside the box" is simply I don't understand what the box is and the limitations of various things, so I'm going with whatever I have on hand; for example, I have an uncle with a truck, circular saw and a number of woodworking tools, living a mile down the road from Home Depot, so we went with a wooden table and anvil stand. My experience with making things is severely lacking, my job consists of "soft skills," and I'm the guy that nearly failed woodshop, so ideas involving hacks to make things work are always a good thing!

 

I'll keep the metal carts in mind, but for now, I'm just trying to make what I have work so I don't take over the entire living room with tools...and not get murdered by my wife for doing so!

 

Thanks for the input! 

[ThomasPowers]

When I lived in NJ Englishtown Auction---really a fleamarket was my go to place. But check out recycling centers that buy iron/steel and building demolition companies as well. I've mentioned finding a smallish ornamental iron place to see if you could get scrap from them. One of my students started forging while he was living in a dorm in college---scrapmetal under the bed, the desk replaced with a workbench with a postvise. He chained a gas grill to the fence out back that hid his propane forge.

Seems like you need to make friends with someone with a bit more space who wants to smith too. I sponsor an open forge Wednesday nights that gets a number of folks who are in the service, college or still living at home. Others in other places do too.

[ThomasPowers]

BTW that anvil is a colonial style very likely to be pre 1800 and is in quite good shape for that era. If you are trying to get a colonial or early 19th century demo set that would be a key part of your kit.

Tell your aunt you will make it's weight in colonial items for her if she buys it for you!
(Also show her Colonial Wrought Iron - The Sorber Collection Plummer, Don; better ILL it as it's a tad pricy, "Iron and Brass Implements of the English and American House" by J. Seymour Lindsay, at under US$12 shipped would probably be a better starting place)

[LibrariaNPC]

BTW that anvil is a colonial style very likely to be pre 1800 and is in quite good shape for that era. If you are trying to get a colonial or early 19th century demo set that would be a key part of your kit.

Tell your aunt you will make it's weight in colonial items for her if she buys it for you!
(Also show her Colonial Wrought Iron - The Sorber Collection Plummer, Don; better ILL it as it's a tad pricy, "Iron and Brass Implements of the English and American House" by J. Seymour Lindsay, at under US$12 shipped would probably be a better starting place)

 

I assume you mean the anvil I posted from Craigslist? If so, I would totally make that offer to her if I had more knowledge on how to make Colonial things. I can't tell from the photos, but it does seem a bit beat; any input there?

 

Thankfully I'm not trying to be exact to period if I get an invite somewhere, or else I'd need to invest into a coal forge that I just don't have the space for. *laughs*

[ThomasPowers]

Actually you would most likely be using a charcoal forge and not coal for American Colonial; the investment would be in the bellows and sideblown forge. Complicated by the term coal meaning charcoal in earlier days and the stone stuff being called "sea coal" "earth coal", etc. (ILL a copy of Moxon's "Mechanicks Exercises" the complete version not the printing subset; Astragal press did a nice facsimile version, for instructions on early 1700's smithing and of course Diderot's Encyclopedia for late 1700's smithing.)

That anvil did not look too bad to me especially for it age, a dead flat surface is not that important, smooth is more important than flat

[Glenn]

A coal forge can be as large or as small as you want it to be.  

[LibrariaNPC]

Actually you would most likely be using a charcoal forge and not coal for American Colonial; the investment would be in the bellows and sideblown forge. Complicated by the term coal meaning charcoal in earlier days and the stone stuff being called "sea coal" "earth coal", etc. (ILL a copy of Moxon's "Mechanicks Exercises" the complete version not the printing subset; Astragal press did a nice facsimile version, for instructions on early 1700's smithing and of course Diderot's Encyclopedia for late 1700's smithing.)

That anvil did not look too bad to me especially for it age, a dead flat surface is not that important, smooth is more important than flat

 

Thanks for that input. I'll keep it on my radar for now (as well as this oddity that made me chuckle) and see if I can't see it in person. Might be a bit large to easily store in the apartment and may need to invest into a hand truck, but it's an option at the very least.

 

 

A coal forge can be as large or as small as you want it to be.  

 

Duly noted, but space to keep it inside (as it will "walk off" if left outside) as well as the space for the coal is a bit of a challenge.

 

Moving to a coal forge is an option in the future, just not ideal with my living situation, sadly. I'll still keep it in mind, especially since the historical society president informed me that they just found a blower/bellows recently that they are trying to fix, and may need a smith that can demonstrate how to make things at their facility. Better get cracking, apparently!

[ThomasPowers]

Start talking the historical society into buying research books if they have a "library"! Use of their facility can be great or terrible depending on details...but even if you only "borrowed it" for doing larger pieces it can help. I have projects that are on hold till I visit smiths with larger equipment---like when I wanted to forge down some 2.5" sq stock to make a stump anvil shaft...(or right now I just picked up some 1.5" sq stock to make some smaller ones; even left it at a friend with powerhammers shop...)

[LibrariaNPC]

Start talking the historical society into buying research books if they have a "library"! Use of their facility can be great or terrible depending on details...but even if you only "borrowed it" for doing larger pieces it can help. I have projects that are on hold till I visit smiths with larger equipment---like when I wanted to forge down some 2.5" sq stock to make a stump anvil shaft...(or right now I just picked up some 1.5" sq stock to make some smaller ones; even left it at a friend with powerhammers shop...)

 

I'll keep it in mind! I don't think they have much of a library; they store things at the library I work for from time to time, so I doubt they'll be game, but it's worth looking into!

 

And my thoughts were similar to yours; if they have the space to store things and let me "play" from time to time, I'd be just fine with that :-D